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#1 2004-05-01 08:03:48

whitestaff
Valar

4. TREEBEARD

<font color="chocolate">  <font size="4"> [B]TREEBEARD [/B]   </font>   </font> 


<font face="arial">  <font color="seagreen"> Started By: <b>white__staff </b>
Posted: 3/2/2002 10:11A

<b>Chapter Four, Book Three of <I>The Lord of the Rings</I>. As the story unfolds, Merry and Pippin delve deeper into the forest of Fangorn and find a hill where they hope to get a better view of the land and some much needed fresh air. There they meet one of Professor Tolkien's most imaginative characters, Treebeard, an <I>Ent!</I> The giant, tree-like being takes the pair of hobbits many entstrides to Wellinghall, an ent-house at the foot of the mountains where the hobbits drink from the Entwash and rest all the while listening to Treebeard's tales and tell him of their adventures and the news of the outside world. Treebeard becomes roused as he talks of Saruman and his Orcs and the felling of many good trees. Fangorn (Treebears's elvish name) vows to stop Saruman and decides to call all of the other Ents to a meeting, an Entmoot, held the next day. Merry and Pippin are surprised to see so many different variety of Ents there and spend part of the day with Bregalad (Quickbeam) before, quite hastily for Ents, the decision is reached to march to Isengard and crush Saruman's fortress!  </font>   </font>
[IMG]http://anduin.eldar.org/artgallery/tolkien/alee/lee21_treebeard.jpg[/IMG]


"Fool of a Took! This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking-party."
 

#2 2004-05-01 08:22:09

whitestaff
Valar

Re: 4. TREEBEARD

<font face="arial"> <font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
Ithlista </font>
<font color="seagreen"> 3/2/2002 11:22A
Treebeard. ah , again, what a chapter. so so so rich and huuuuummmmmugously wonderful.</b>

thank you white staff for posting this early, gave me just enough time to post my part and say hi to a friend then I am gone for most the day, hope to be back later on to see some wonderful posts here .

Treebeard,

the name says it all, this is going to be quite the encounter.

If any chapter contains information this chapter contains more still .my goodness, I had to reread several chapters during my reread because there was so much to take in.

Meanwhile the hobbits went with as much speed as the dark and tangled forest allowed, following the line of the running stream , westward and up towards the slopes of the mountains, deeper and deeper into Fangorn. Slowly their fear of the Orcs died away , and their pace slackened....an occurance of things to come.


The Hobbits can hardly breath , they find clear stream to drink from and to heal their sore legs and feet. The stuffy situation reminds them of their home

In the process we receive some Hobbit Lore..

Yes, it is all very dim, and stuffy, in here , said Pippin. It reminds me , some how, of the old room in the Great Place of the Tooks away back in the Smials at Tuckborough: a huge place , where the furniture has never been moved or changed for generations.

we indeed get a feel of what the Hobbits are experiencing here.

They say the Old Took lived in it year after year, while he and he room got older and shabbier together - and it has never been changed since he died, a century ago. And Old Gerontius ( very latin sounding name to me ) was my great grandfather: that puts it back a bit, But tht is nothing to the old feeling of htis wood.

interesting the wood should be even "worse".

Look at all those weeping ,trailing, beards and whiskers of lichen! and most of the trees seem to he half covered with ragged dry leaves that have never fallen . Untidy. ( Elves must not abide here with in this forest to keep it up so to speak ) , I can`t imagine what spring would look like here, if it ever comes; still less a spring cleaning.

very interesting comments to the first glimpse of this mighty old forest.

Merry mentions the sun must peep in some times and the forest does not sound quite as dark and black as Mirkwood. this forest is just dim, frightfully treeish. they cannot imagine animals living with in this forest at all. I must pay attention to see if they do encounter any animal. a forest with no animals to me is not complete. somehow.

They wonder if Hobbits could even get through this forest and then they check their supplies. then as they debate what to do from that point on they see a patch of sunlight appear further along, they make their way and it seemed to be further than they presumed. they come to a sudden rock wall before them , the side of a hill, or the abrupt end of some long root thrust out by the distant mountains. No trees grew on it and the sun was falling full on its stony face. Colors appeared , the wood now gleamed with rich browns and black-greys of bark like polished leather and soft greens like young early grass; early spring of a fleeting vision of it was about them. ( so spring does indeed come into Fangorn Forest it seems ). Tolkien seems here to me to describe something he himself experienced.

they see a natural stair and climb it. with some effort, but the Hobbits find their sores healed quite a bit and their vigour had returned for a great deal.

then they come to the edge of a shelf and find they have only come three or four miles into the forest. they see the smoke of the fire the Rohirrim had made and the wind had turned. it was cool where the Hobbits stood.

The wind`s changing, said Merry. It`s turned east again . it feels cool up here. Yes , said Pippin; I`m afraid htis is only a passing gleam, and it will all go grey again . What a pitty! This shaggy old forest looked so differrent in the sunlight. I almost felt I liked the place.

This last remark Pippin makes always stayed in my mind after my first read. I loved what followed. ( even if I had to reread it several times to find out what was really encountered here ).

Almost felt like you liked the Forest! That`s good! That`s uncommonly kind of you, said a strange voice. Turn round and let me have a look at your faces. I almost feel that I dislike yoiu both, but do not let us be hasty. Turn round ! A large knob-knuckled hand was laid on each of their shoulders , and they were twisted round, gently but irresistibly; then two great arms lifted them up.

wow what an encounter this must have been. where did JRR Tolkien ever come up with this most brilliant find !

They found they were looking at a most extraordinary face . It belonged to a large Man-like , almost Troll-like figure ( We must remeber that by Morgoth Trolls were made in Mockery of Ents). , at least 14 feet hight and hardly any neck. Whether it was clad in stuff like green and grey bark, or whether that was its hide, was difficult to say. At any rate the arms, at a short distance from the trunk , were not wrinkeled , but covered with a brouwn smooth skin. The large feet had seven toes each. The lower part of thelong face was covered with a sweeping grey beard, bushy, a,most twiggy at the roots, thin and mossy at the ends. The deep eyes were now surveying them , slow and solemn, but very penetrating. they were brown, shot with a green light. Often afterwards Pippin tried to describe this first impression of them.

One felt as if there was an enormous well behind them, filled up with ages of memory and long, slow, steady thinking; but their surface was sparkling with the present : like sun shimmering onthe outer leaves of a vast tree, or on the ripples of a very deep lake. I don`t know , but it felt as if something that grew in the ground- asleep , you might say, or just feeling itself as something between root-tip and leaf-tip, between deep earth and sky- had suddenly waked up, and was condidering you with the same slow care that it had given to its own inside affairs for enless years .
(Interesting to me it is here that Tolkien goes into speaking as if from his mind, not any longer Pippins for a moment , did he encounter an Ent I wonder [132] ).

the persons voice is like a deep woodwind instrument. He first thought the Hobbits to be Little Orcs and was about to trod them. ai. thank goodness for non hastiness here.

Then he announces what he is, an Ent. Fangorn is his name or Treebeard. He says his true entish name would be too long to account , as names in entish tell the tale of the life of its owner, very fascinating. Treebeard tries to figure out what the Hobbits are and where they fit into the elvish songs. ( it is the Elves who awoke the Ents and taught them to speak ) you find out a great deal more about Elves and their eager ways and about Ents and their amazing knowledge. also in the verses you get an idea about the Animals in Middle Earth.

( I hope wonderful white staff finds time to put down the verses. )

they sing of Elves, Dwarves, Ents and Men as in the free folk. Men as the master of horses. linked to the Rohirrim mainly. Beaver, Bear, Bees, Boar, Hound, Hare, Eagle, Ox, Hart Horn, Hawk, Swan, Serpent......

then Pippin makes up their line...Half-grown hobbits, the hole dwellers.

placing them , he said, next to Men. Interesting how Treebeard tells them they cannot just go naming them selves.

Then after Pippin and Merry account of them selves. Treebeard continues to tell more of Ents and Ents.

I so wish I could type every single word out here. there is so much, I will try to get out of these parts the most important , to me , highlights and hope the discussion will bring out far more contained.

Old Entish is a lovely lanuage as treebeard tells us a few times . he speaks some of it once and while...

a-lalla-lalla-rumba-kamanda-lind-or-burume ( / on the u and .. on the e )

bararum ( / on the a ) a deep rumbling noise like a dischord on a great organ meaning Orc it seems.

Young Saruman. that makes me smile. they each find out they know Gandalf that assures the trust between them.


News is shared of Gandalfs falling out of the tale. Treebeard does not quite know what to say to that bit of news.

I note something odd about Treebeards reaction to the facts of Gandalf...


they go to One of Treebeards homes. after discussing the thing they are standing on is a hill. far too hasty a name for a thing that has been standing there since this part of the world was shaped. said Treebeard , I love that.

another distance is measured. Ent Strides, ehum and hummm and hooom, I think I cannot find that in the dictionary [130]

Great how Treebeard carries the Hobbits to one of his homes they feel safe and comfortable and can think for a bit . All the while as Treebeard walked he talked to himself in a long running stream of musical sounds.

Pippin then asked why Celeborn warned them of Fangorn forest. Treebeard announces had it been visa versa he would have done the same towards Celeborns realm. It seems to eachother the others realm is queer, strange, he mentions its older name. Laurelindorinan ( / on the o ) lindelorendor malinornelion ( / on the e ) ornemalin , he mentions they are falling behind in their world. ( as in fading away ??)

Also nothing out side the Golden Wood is what is was when Celeborn was young.

Taurelilomea ( / on the o and .. on the e )- tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurea ( .. on the second e) Lomeanor (/ on the first o and .. on the e)

this is what they used to say. things have changed but it is still true in places. he then tells how there are Ents who grow sleepy, tree-ish .

some even have bad Hearts. the Old Forest is mentioned. ( referring to Old Man Willow no doubt ). He says there are worse places still where the shadow has never lifted and there are trees older than him self still. ( considering Yavanna brought the Ents to be in the first age it will be amazing to find out what exists beyond Treebeard still ).

They are Tree Herds He says, few of them are left. he names a few later on. He tells that ents are more like elves, as in less interested in them selves and better getting inside of other things. and yet more like men more changeable and quicker at taking the color of the outside or better than both for they are steadier and keep their minds on things longer.

He tells of Ents looking more like trees as times pass. and how elves woke up the trees and tought them how to speak and learning their treetalk. then the great darkness came. and Elves passed over the great sea. then a lovely verse follows ( white staff I leave this entish honor to you , I hope you have the time, thanks before hand )

wonderful places.

They come to Treebeards home. wonderful place. so lovely as it is described.

one of my favorite parts , if I can have such.

Looking back, the hobbits saw that the trees in the court had also begun to glow, faintly at first, but streadily quickening , until every leaf was edged with light: some green, some gold, some red as copper; while the tree trunks looked like pillars moulded out of luminous stone.

lovely. I love the table slab and the Entihs Bed and the bowles used to drink. the water is also described.

The effect of the draught began in the toes and rise steadily through every limb , bringing refreshment and vigour as it coursed upwards, right to the tips of the hair. Indeed the Hobbits felt that the hair on their heads was actually standing up , waving and curling and growing. [130]

Then the Ent Bed and pillows of grass, love it. Treebeard speaks of the Entwives and the related tales. in the last chapter I believe it was mentioned why did Pippin and Merry not account for them as they seemed to know about them while Treebeard account the sad Entwife facts. It was Sam and his cousin Hal who accounte for them, not Pippin or Merry. I think If Sam had been there he would have been able to give Treebeard some hope. and it would account for his later remark that he does believe they will be together again some day in peace. Seems ents will go West too some day.

Also it seems Treebeard knew the storms of that time would be coming ( Saurons attack ), ones even he and his people could not hold back and they would have to become a part of. Sarumans betrayal was also seen before but now realized in fullness. Seems Treebeard was fully used and then betrayed with bitter losses .

I will stop it! he boomed. And you shall come with me . You may be able to help me. You will be helping your own friends that way ,too; for if Saruman is not checked Rohan adn Gondor wil lhave an enemy behind as well as infront. Our roads go together-to Isengard! We will come with you, said Merry. We will do what we can. Yes , said Pippin. I should like to see the White Hand over thrown .

then the none hastiness again prevails. I have become too hot . I must cool my self and think; for it is easier to shout stop ! than to do it.

Here he murmers and the other Ents are mentioned. Finglas ( leaflock) who has grown sleepy. and Fladrif ( Skinbark) who has suffered hurt and his area has received a severe attack.

then the account about how Ents are vanishing. not dying. Treebeard explains. Entwives have gone and no more Entings come forth. that tale in itself is amazing. sad and full of grief and amazing. would love to see its whole tale in full someday. here we meet Fimbrethil and Wandlimb. Ents like things they meet in the world, great trees , wild woods, slopes, high hills, they drand mountain streams ate fallen fruits spoke to elves and trees.

Entwives on the other hand, gave mind to lesser trees, meads, loved sun shine, went beyond forests, they liked order and to control things. they taught men their crafts and were honored. they used to inhabbit the brown lands but once when Treebeard and other Ents went to visit them they were gone and the lands were burned.

the famous song, there are five parts in this very chapter Tolkien does a reading to , it is ever so splendid, maybe links to these readings exist.

wonderful wonderful. sigh

then we find out Ents stand to sleep, love it. Glad the hobbits speak up, and get to sleep as they and we do. they even get to bathe in the morning that must have felt wonderful after all their sore ventures.

love this part , before the Hobbits sleep. The bright stars peered out of the sky, and lit the falling water as it spilled onto his fingers and head, and dripped , dripped, in hundreds of silver drops onto his feet.

ever seen drops of melting snow or rain fall from trees in the sun, it is glorious. magical.

Treebeard arrives and announces that he had already been many a hundred strides and they had to go to the Entmoot. The Hobbts were given anther drink. more earthier and richer, more sustaining and food-like. ( must be so if the hobbits think it ). on their way thickets of Birch and Rowan trees, superb and around them climbing pinewoods.

Treebeard is humming to himself on the way with boom, boom, rumboom, boorar, boom boom, dahrar boom,a nd so on and sometimes an answer seemed to come also. with a constant change of rhythm. Treebeard did not stop or turn his head ot either side.

Pippin counts the Ent- strides, and lost count at about three thousand. ai. Then Treebeard slackened his stride and puts the Hobbits down, and then he raised his curled hands to his mouth so that they made a hollow tube; then he blew or called through them. A great hoom, hom rang out like a deep throated horn in the woods, and seemed to echo from the trees. Far of there came from several directions a similar hoom, hom, hoom that was nto an echo but an answer . Pippin and Merry are then put upon his shoulders and he continues on with the horn call and the replies becoming louder and nearer. they come to a wall of evergreen trees, the likes of which Pippin and Merry had never seen before, ( hmm, very interesting, when you think you know most of what exists in the world of JRR Tolkien new lifeforms are encountered still ), these trees branched out from the roots, and were densely clad in dark glossy leaves like thornless holly,(neat), and they bore many stiff upright flower-spikes with large shining coloured buds.

They descend into a dingle, almost round as a bowl , very wide and deep, crowned at the with the high dark evergreen hedge. It was smooth and grass clad inside, and there were no trees except three very tall and beautiful silver birches that stood at the bottom of the bowl. two other paths lead in to the bowl from the west and from the east. Several Ents had already arrived. ( I would have loved ,or would love, to see this ). The Ents were as different from one another as trees from trees. Several are discribed. no Entings, saplings are present. So many kinds are described, wonderful ,absolutely wonderful. and then murmering in their slow musical voices and looking long and intently at the strangers, they all had the same eyes: not all so old or deep as Treebeard`s, but all with the same slow , steady, thoughtful expression, and the same green flicker. In the end they all chanted together.

love the following...

After a long time ( and the chant showed no sign of slackening ) he found himself wondering , sinvce Entish was such an 'unhasty' language, whether they had got further than Good Morning. ; and if Treebeard was to call the roll , how many days it would take to sing all their names. ' I wonder what the Entish is for yes or no, he thought , He yawned. [130]

Treebeard instantly notices Pippin. and Treebeard puts them down and tells them they can walk about the dingle and up north is a well of good water. the Hobbits bow and this amused the Ents.

The Hobbits come upon a higher place and peek through the opening of the hedge. they see the plains of Rohan. Merry thinks what they see is Methedras. ( a peek west from Isengard if I am correct ) . Seems Merry knows quite a bit about Isengard , showing his wisdom in seeking out these things ere leaving Rivendell. then they wonder how Ents will prevail against Isengard.

I have an odd feeling about these Ents : somehow I don`t think they are quite as safe and, well , funny as they seem. they seem slow, queer, and patient, almost sad; and yet I believe they could be roused. If that happened , I would rather not be on the other side. Merry says.

As the Hobbits walk about and drink some water, they suddenly long to see familiar faces again and hear familiar voices. of Frodo and Sam and Strider.

Treebeard then comes and explains the Ents now have to decide on the actions given the facts and they would be a long time yet, a couple of days. Bregalad then is introduced and he has already made up his mind, he is the nearest thing among us to a hasty Ent , Treebeard says. LOL.

He is described and the Hobbits wonder if he will show signs of hastiness. LOL again. Bregalad is Quickbeem in the language of the Hobbit, the common tongue I am guessing. Quickbeem often laughed. His home had a circle of Rowan trees about it He seemed to love Rowan trees.water is in all Ent houses. Bregalad is from Skinbarks people. their country had been ravaged. He indeed loves Rowan trees the most and tells more of their history. their destruction began with birds that became unfriendly and wasted the fruit and then the Orcs came.

Another wonderful but sad verse. ( white staff, please ,solemnly )

The Hobbits fall asleep as Bregalad/ Quickbeam laments the losses of his beloved trees.

The third day the Entmoot had grown silent, what did it mean. Bregalad was standing up errect and tense.

then with a crash came a great ringing shout: rahoom-rah ! The trees quivered and bent as if a gust had struck them. There was another pause, and then a marching music began like solemn drums, and above the rolling beats and booms there welled voices singing high and strong.

We come , we come with roll of drim: ta-runda runda runda rom !

The Ents were coming: ever nearer and louder rose their song:

We come, we come with horn and drum : ta-runa (- on the u ) runa runa rom !

Bregalad picked up the Hobbits and strode from his house.

Treebeard lead the Ents to war. the marching song.

( white staff, this chapter sure has many wonderful songs. I hope you can manage all of them. thanks )

Treebeard takes the Hobbits back and they march on. To the Hobbits it seemed the Ents had changed, as the bursting of a flood that had long been held back by a dike.

It seemed the Ents had as Pippin remarked indeed made up their minds rather hastily. they were roused. It is said that Wizards should know better, they do know better, and the treachery that Saruman presented was the worst possible kind and needed to be dealt with . It is told here indeed Trolls are strong but made in mockery of Ents and that Ents are the real thing. stronger and made from the bones of the earth, they can split stone like the roots of trees, only quicker , far quicker, they could split Isengard into splinters and crack its walls to rubble if they are not destroyed before they do so. yipes !!!

It is suspected Saruman will aim to stop them but they are roused now and may cool some ere they arrive. in the end Treebeard says this may be the last march of the Ents and they may indeed be going to their doom, but, they know had they stayed home doom would eventually have found them anyways. Treebeard expresses his longings to see Fimbrethil again but knows the Ents must do their parts now. in hopes of a worthy song. As the night arrives Pippin looks back and sees the groves of trees moving , as if the forest was marching over the hills to war. night fell and it was silent. they come to Nan Curunir, the Valley of Saruman.

Night lies over Isengard, said Treebeard.

wow what a chapter and I covered not even half of it. yours in hastier days.


Huuuummmmmmmungous Hugs.

( I did not have much time to go over silly grammer mistakes, hope they are few , hope all is clear as possible , see you later )

Wouldn`t it be interesting if we all had time to figure out our entish names, would be like our diaries I suspect. if we have such. fascinating thought.

( it is hard not to linger here and go on and on and on. entish effect maybe. sigh)

but must go, already pushing my luck.

Namarie !!!  </font>   </font>


"Fool of a Took! This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking-party."
 

#3 2004-05-01 08:24:34

whitestaff
Valar

Re: 4. TREEBEARD

<font face="arial"> <font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
white__staff  </font>
<font color="seagreen"> 3/2/2002 12:43P
Songs from the Chapter

Fangorn's Song of Lore</b><I>

Learn now the lore of Living Creatures!
First name the four, the free peoples:
Eldest of all, the elf-children;
Dwarf the delver, dark are his houses;
Ent the earthborn, old as mountains;
Man the mortal, master of horses:

Beaver the builder, buck the leaper,
Bear bee-hunter, boar the fighter;
Hound is hungry, hare is fearful...

Eagle in eyrie, ox in pasture,
Hart horn-crownéd; hawk is swiftest,
Swan the whitest, serpent coldest....
</I><b>
*********************************************

Fangorn's Reminescence Song
</b><I>
In the willow-meads of Tasarinan I walked in the
Spring.
Ah! the sight and the smell of the Spring in Nan-
tasarion!
And I said that was good.
I wandered in Summer in the elm-woods of Ossiriand.
Ah! the light and the music in the Summer by the
Seven Rivers of Ossir!
And I thought that was best.
To the beeches of Neldoreth I came in the Autumn.
Ah! the gold and the red and the sighing of leaves in the
Autumn in Taur-na-neldor!
It was more than my desire.
To the pine-trees upon the highland of Dorthonion I
climbed in the Winter.
Ah! the wind and the whiteness and the black branches
of Winter upon Orod-na-Thön!
My voice went up and sang in the sky.
And now all those lands lie under the wave,
And I walk in Ambarona, in Tauremorna, in Aldalómë,
In my own land, in the country of Fangorn,
Where the roots are long,
And the years lie thicker than the leaves
In Tauremornalómeë.
</I><b>
*********************************************

The Ent and the Ent-wife
</b><I>
ENT:
When Spring unfolds the beechen leaf, and sap is in the bough;
When light is on the wild-wood stream, and wind is on the brow;
When stride is long, and breath is deep, and keen the mountain-air,
Come back to me! Come back to me, and say my land is fair!

ENTWIFE:
When Spring is come to garth and field, and corn is in the blade;
When blossom like a shining snow is on the orchard laid;
When shower and Sun upon the Earth with fragrance fill the air,
I'll linger here, and will not come, because my land is fair.

ENT:
When Summer lies upon the world, and in a noon of gold
Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold;
When woodland halls are green and cool, and wind is in the West,
Come back to me! Come back to me, and say my land is best!

ENTWIFE:
When Summer warms the hanging fruit and burns the berry brown;
When straw is gold, and ear is white, and harvest comes to town;
When honey spills, and apple swells, though wind be in the West,
I'll linger here beneath the Sun, because my land is best!

ENT:
When Winter comes, the winter wild that hill and wood shall slay;
When trees shall fall and starless night devour the sunless day;
When wind is in the deadly East, then in the bitter rain
I'll look for thee, and call to thee; I'll come to thee again!

ENTWIFE:
When Winter comes, and singing ends; when darkness falls at last;
When broken is the barren bough, and light and labour past;
I'll look for thee, and wait for thee, until we meet again:
Together we will tkae the road beneath the bitter rain!

BOTH:
Together we will take the road that leads into the West,
And far away will find a land where both our hearts may rest.
</I><b>
*********************************************

Song About Rowans
</b><I>
O Orofarnë, Lassemista, Carnimírië!
O rowan fair, upon your hair how white the blossom lay!
O rowan mine, I saw you shine upon a summer's day,
Your rind so bright, your leaves so light, your voice so cool
and soft:
Upon your head how golden-red the crown you bore aloft!
O rowan dead, upon your head your hair is dry and grey;
Your crown is spilled your voice is stilled for ever and a
day.
O Orofarnë, Lassemista, Carnimírië!
</I><b>
*********************************************

The Ents' Marching Song
</b><I>
We come, we come with roll of drum: ta-runda runda runda rom!
We come, we come with horn and drum: ta-runa runa runa rom!
To Isengard! Though Isengard be ringed and barred with doors of stone;
Though Isengard be strong and hard, as cold as stone and bare as bone,
We go, we go, we go to war, to hew the stone and break the door;
For bole and bough are burning now, the furnace roars - we go to war!
To land of gloom with tramp of doom, with roll of drum, we come, we come;
To Isengard with doom we come!
With doom we come, with doom we come!
</I>
<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
Dís   </font>
3/2/2002 4:31P
This is some chapter</b>

In this chapter we meet Treebeard and the Ents for the first time and it is indeed an important meeting. Merry and Pippin have been able to drink some water and rest a little, much needed after their rapid march through Rohan, and when they come to the cliffside they wont to take a look at the lands. It is on the cliffside that they meet Treebeard. I don´t know what I would do if I stood near a tree and suddenly I felt a hand on my shoulder, turning me around so that I saw that what I first thought to be only a tree realy was a living creature. I think that it must have been quite an experience for all of them to have met each other.

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
white__staff   </font>
3/2/2002 4:42P
What <I>are </I>Ents?</b>

Here is one thing Tolkien wrote about them in his <I>Letters:</I>

"As usual with me they [the Ents] grew rather out of their name, than the other way about. I always felt that something ought to be done about the peculiar Anglo-Saxon word <I>ent</I> for a 'giant' or mighty person of long ago - to whom all old works were ascribed."

and also this passage:

"I have long ceased to <I>invent</I>...: I wait till I seem to know what really happened. Or till it writes itself. Thus, though I knew for years that Frodo* would run into a tree-adventure somewhere far down the Great River, I have no recollection of inventing Ents. I came at last to the point, and wrote the 'Treebeard' chapter without any recollection of previous thought: just as it now is."

* - Frodo was to have met Treebeard in Tolkien's preliminary rough drafts but as the story evolved he had to revise this notion as he did with many of his ideas concerning events and characters.

In this chapter there is a passage where Treebeard himself tells what Ents are:

"'We are tree-herds, we old Ents. Few enough of us are left now. Sheep get like shepherds, and sheperds like sheep, it is said: but slowly, and neither have long in the world. It is quicker and closer with trees and Ents, and they walk down ages together. For Ents are more like Elves: less interested in themselves than Men are, and better at getting inside other things. And yet again Ents are more like Men, more changeable than Elves are, and quicker at talking the color of the outside, you might say. Or better at both: for they are steadier and keep their minds on things longer.'"

So this brings me at last to one of my observations from my last reading of this long and informative chapter: What did the Ents look like in the Beginning Days before they experienced age upon age of this transformational process of the blending of "sheep and shepherd"? I suppose I never thought of this before. I had assumed that Treebeard had always been a tree-like creature but I must say, now, that he and the other Ents had obviously been something quite different when they first emerged in the world. I wonder now if these giants were more Man-like then. Their beginning or how they came to be is of course found in the <I>Silmarillion</I> yet there is no description of their physical characteristics.

By root and twig,
white staff </font>  </font>


"Fool of a Took! This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking-party."
 

#4 2004-05-01 08:36:59

whitestaff
Valar

Re: 4. TREEBEARD

<font face="arial"> <font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
white__staff   </font>
<font color="seagreen"> 3/2/2002 11:08P
A Borrowed Post from jallan!</b>

As I thought of the things I would like to bring up here my mind (as opposed to myself I guess, LOL) thought back to a message <b>jallan</b> posted long ago about Treebeard and where Tolkien may have found his inspiration. I then of course had to remember where I had read it and luckily all memory has not left me yet as I did find it in the [U]Ask me any question[/U] board* under this thread begun by <b>tapestry</b>:  <font color="blue"> [I]Imagery and metaphor in creation stories [/I]   </font> 

*  <font size="1"> - This is now located in [U]The Halls of Mandos[/U]  </font> 

So without further ado, here is our lost but not forgotten jallan...
<b>
*********************************************
Whence Came Voiced Trees?

Jallan</b> wrote on 2/23/01 8:31:59 PM

[QUOTE]
<font color="chocolate"> I am almost sure the principal inspiration for Tolkien's ents, <I>huorns</I> and the sinister trees of the Old Forest--is George MacDonald's novel <I>Phantastes: A Faerie Romance for Men and Women</I>. MacDonald was arguably the most popular Victorian fantasy writer in English next to Lewis Carol, certainly wrote much more fantasy, and was acknowledged as a strong influence by both Tolkien and C.S. Lewis.

The best web edition of <I>Phantastes</I> is at University of Virginia: Phantastes which contains the original illustrations.

But in case it's not accessible for some reason, here are links to other sites containing the novel: Encyclopedia of the Self: Phantastes, Litrix Reading Room: Phantastes, University of Maryland: Phantastes, and Gutenberg: Phantastes

==========================
Pertinent Excerpts
--------------------------

She seemed afraid of being observed by some lurking foe. "Trust the Oak," said she; "trust the Oak, and the Elm, and the great Beech. Take care of the Birch, for though she is honest, she is too young not to be changeable. But shun the Ash and the Alder; for the Ash is an ogre,--you will know him by his thick fingers; and the Alder will smother you with her web of hair, if you let her near you at night."

--------------------------

"What did you mean by speaking so about the Ash?"

She rose and looked out of the little window. My eyes followed her; but as the window was too small to allow anything to be seen from where I was sitting, I rose and looked over her shoulder. I had just time to see, across the open space, on the edge of the denser forest, a single large ash-tree, whose foliage showed bluish, amidst the truer green of the other trees around it; when she pushed me back with an expression of impatience and terror, and then almost shut out the light from the window by setting up a large old book in it.

"In general," said she, recovering her composure, "there is no danger in the daytime, for then he is sound asleep; but there is something unusual going on in the woods; there must be some solemnity among the fairies to-night, for all the trees are restless, and although they cannot come awake, they see and hear in their sleep."
"But what danger is to be dreaded from him?"

Instead of answering the question, she went again to the window and looked out, saying she feared the fairies would be interrupted by foul weather, for a storm was brewing in the west.

"And the sooner it grows dark, the sooner the Ash will be awake," added she.

--------------------------

"Look there!" she said; "look at his fingers!"

Just as I had been reading in the book, the setting sun was shining through a cleft in the clouds piled up in the west; and a shadow as of a large distorted hand, with thick knobs and humps on the fingers, so that it was much wider across the fingers than across the undivided part of the hand, passed slowly over the little blind, and then as slowly returned in the opposite direction.

"He is almost awake, mother; and greedier than usual to-night."

"Hush, child; you need not make him more angry with us than he is; for you do not know how soon something may happen to oblige us to be in the forest after nightfall."

"But you are in the forest," said I; "how is it that you are safe here?"

"He dares not come nearer than he is now," she replied; "for any of those four oaks, at the corners of our cottage, would tear him to pieces; they are our friends. But he stands there and makes awful faces at us sometimes, and stretches out his long arms and fingers, and tries to kill us with fright; for, indeed, that is his favourite way of doing. Pray, keep out of his way to-night."

--------------------------

But now the daughter returned with the news, that the Ash had just gone away in a south-westerly direction; and, as my course seemed to lie eastward, she hoped I should be in no danger of meeting him if I departed at once. I looked out of the little window, and there stood the ash-tree, to my eyes the same as before; but I believed that they knew better than I did, and prepared to go.

--------------------------

At length she was for a moment almost entirely obscured. When she shone out again, with a brilliancy increased by the contrast, I saw plainly on the path before me--from around which at this spot the trees receded, leaving a small space of green sward--the shadow of a large hand, with knotty joints and protuberances here and there. Especially I remarked, even in the midst of my fear, the bulbous points of the fingers. I looked hurriedly all around, but could see nothing from which such a shadow should fall. Now, however, that I had a direction, however undetermined, in which to project my apprehension, the very sense of danger and need of action overcame that stifling which is the worst property of fear. I reflected in a moment, that if this were indeed a shadow, it was useless to look for the object that cast it in any other direction than between the shadow and the moon. I looked, and peered, and intensified my vision, all to no purpose. I could see nothing of that kind, not even an ash-tree in the neighbourhood. Still the shadow remained; not steady, but moving to and fro, and once I saw the fingers close, and grind themselves close, like the claws of a wild animal, as if in uncontrollable longing for some anticipated prey. There seemed but one mode left of discovering the substance of this shadow. I went forward boldly, though with an inward shudder which I would not heed, to the spot where the shadow lay, threw myself on the ground, laid my head within the form of the hand, and turned my eyes towards the moon Good heavens! what did I see? I wonder that ever I arose, and that the very shadow of the hand did not hold me where I lay until fear had frozen my brain. I saw the strangest figure; vague, shadowy, almost transparent, in the central parts, and gradually deepening in substance towards the outside, until it ended in extremities capable of casting such a shadow as fell from the hand, through the awful fingers of which I now saw the moon. The hand was uplifted in the attitude of a paw about to strike its prey. But the face, which throbbed with fluctuating and pulsatory visibility--not from changes in the light it reflected, but from changes in its own conditions of reflecting power, the alterations being from within, not from without--it was horrible. I do not know how to describe it. It caused a new sensation. Just as one cannot translate a horrible odour, or a ghastly pain, or a fearful sound, into words, so I cannot describe this new form of awful hideousness. I can only try to describe something that is not it, but seems somewhat parallel to it; or at least is suggested by it. It reminded me of what I had heard of vampires; for the face resembled that of a corpse more than anything else I can think of; especially when I can conceive such a face in motion, but not suggesting any life as the source of the motion. The features were rather handsome than otherwise, except the mouth, which had scarcely a curve in it. The lips were of equal thickness; but the thickness was not at all remarkable, even although they looked slightly swollen. They seemed fixedly open, but were not wide apart. Of course I did not REMARK these lineaments at the time: I was too horrified for that. I noted them afterwards, when the form returned on my inward sight with a vividness too intense to admit of my doubting the accuracy of the reflex. But the most awful of the features were the eyes. These were alive, yet not with life.

They seemed lighted up with an infinite greed. A gnawing voracity, which devoured the devourer, seemed to be the indwelling and propelling power of the whole ghostly apparition. I lay for a few moments simply imbruted with terror; when another cloud, obscuring the moon, delivered me from the immediately paralysing effects of the presence to the vision of the object of horror, while it added the force of imagination to the power of fear within me; inasmuch as, knowing far worse cause for apprehension than before, I remained equally ignorant from what I had to defend myself, or how to take any precautions: he might be upon me in the darkness any moment. I sprang to my feet, and sped I knew not whither, only away from the spectre. I thought no longer of the path, and often narrowly escaped dashing myself against a tree, in my headlong flight of fear.

Great drops of rain began to patter on the leaves. Thunder began to mutter, then growl in the distance. I ran on. The rain fell heavier. At length the thick leaves could hold it up no longer; and, like a second firmament, they poured their torrents on the earth. I was soon drenched, but that was nothing. I came to a small swollen stream that rushed through the woods. I had a vague hope that if I crossed this stream, I should be in safety from my pursuer; but I soon found that my hope was as false as it was vague. I dashed across the stream, ascended a rising ground, and reached a more open space, where stood only great trees. Through them I directed my way, holding eastward as nearly as I could guess, but not at all certain that I was not moving in an opposite direction. My mind was just reviving a little from its extreme terror, when, suddenly, a flash of lightning, or rather a cataract of successive flashes, behind me, seemed to throw on the ground in front of me, but far more faintly than before, from the extent of the source of the light, the shadow of the same horrible hand. I sprang forward, stung to yet wilder speed; but had not run many steps before my foot slipped, and, vainly attempting to recover myself, I fell at the foot of one of the large trees. Half-stunned, I yet raised myself, and almost involuntarily looked back. All I saw was the hand within three feet of my face. But, at the same moment, I felt two large soft arms thrown round me from behind; and a voice like a woman's said: "Do not fear the goblin; he dares not hurt you now." With that, the hand was suddenly withdrawn as from a fire, and disappeared in the darkness and the rain. Overcome with the mingling of terror and joy, I lay for some time almost insensible. The first thing I remember is the sound of a voice above me, full and low, and strangely reminding me of the sound of a gentle wind amidst the leaves of a great tree. It murmured over and over again: "I may love him, I may love him; for he is a man, and I am only a beech-tree." I found I was seated on the ground, leaning against a human form, and supported still by the arms around me, which I knew to be those of a woman who must be rather above the human size, and largely proportioned. I turned my head, but without moving otherwise, for I feared lest the arms should untwine themselves; and clear, somewhat mournful eyes met mine. At least that is how they impressed me; but I could see very little of colour or outline as we sat in the dark and rainy shadow of the tree. The face seemed very lovely, and solemn from its stillness; with the aspect of one who is quite content, but waiting for something. I saw my conjecture from her arms was correct: she was above the human scale throughout, but not greatly.

"Why do you call yourself a beech-tree?" I said.

"Because I am one," she replied, in the same low, musical, murmuring voice.

"You are a woman," I returned.

"Do you think so? Am I very like a woman then?"

"You are a very beautiful woman. Is it possible you should not know it?"

"I am very glad you think so. I fancy I feel like a woman sometimes. I do so to-night--and always when the rain drips from my hair. For there is an old prophecy in our woods that one day we shall all be men and women like you. Do you know anything about it in your region? Shall I be very happy when I am a woman? I fear not, for it is always in nights like these that I feel like one. But I long to be a woman for all that."

I had let her talk on, for her voice was like a solution of all musical sounds. I now told her that I could hardly say whether women were happy or not. I knew one who had not been happy; and for my part, I had often longed for Fairy Land, as she now longed for the world of men. But then neither of us had lived long, and perhaps people grew happier as they grew older. Only I doubted it.

I could not help sighing. She felt the sigh, for her arms were still round me. She asked me how old I was.

"Twenty-one," said I.

"Why, you baby!" said she, and kissed me with the sweetest kiss of winds and odours. There was a cool faithfulness in the kiss that revived my heart wonderfully. I felt that I feared the dreadful Ash no more.

"What did the horrible Ash want with me?" I said.

"I am not quite sure, but I think he wants to bury you at the foot of his tree. But he shall not touch you, my child."

"Are all the ash-trees as dreadful as he?"

"Oh, no. They are all disagreeable selfish creatures--(what horrid men they will make, if it be true!)--but this one has a hole in his heart that nobody knows of but one or two; and he is always trying to fill it up, but he cannot. That must be what he wanted you for. I wonder if he will ever be a man. If he is, I hope they will kill him."

"How kind of you to save me from him!"

"I will take care that he shall not come near you again. But there are some in the wood more like me, from whom, alas! I cannot protect you. Only if you see any of them very beautiful, try to walk round them."

"What then?"

"I cannot tell you more. But now I must tie some of my hair about you, and then the Ash will not touch you. Here, cut some off. You men have strange cutting things about you."

She shook her long hair loose over me, never moving her arms.

"I cannot cut your beautiful hair. It would be a shame."

"Not cut my hair! It will have grown long enough before any is wanted again in this wild forest. Perhaps it may never be of any use again--not till I am a woman." And she sighed.

As gently as I could, I cut with a knife a long tress of flowing, dark hair, she hanging her beautiful head over me. When I had finished, she shuddered and breathed deep, as one does when an acute pain, steadfastly endured without sign of suffering, is at length relaxed. She then took the hair and tied it round me, singing a strange, sweet song, which I could not understand, but which left in me a feeling like this--
"I saw thee ne'er before;
I see thee never more;
But love, and help, and pain, beautiful one,
Have made thee mine, till all my years are done."
I cannot put more of it into words. She closed her arms about me again, and went on singing. The rain in the leaves, and a light wind that had arisen, kept her song company. I was wrapt in a trance of still delight. It told me the secret of the woods, and the flowers, and the birds. At one time I felt as if I was wandering in childhood through sunny spring forests, over carpets of primroses, anemones, and little white starry things--I had almost said creatures, and finding new wonderful flowers at every turn. At another, I lay half dreaming in the hot summer noon, with a book of old tales beside me, beneath a great beech; or, in autumn, grew sad because I trod on the leaves that had sheltered me, and received their last blessing in the sweet odours of decay; or, in a winter evening, frozen still, looked up, as I went home to a warm fireside, through the netted boughs and twigs to the cold, snowy moon, with her opal zone around her. At last I had fallen asleep; for I know nothing more that passed till I found myself lying under a superb beech-tree, in the clear light of the morning, just before sunrise. Around me was a girdle of fresh beech-leaves. Alas! I brought nothing with me out of Fairy Land, but memories--memories. The great boughs of the beech hung drooping around me. At my head rose its smooth stem, with its great sweeps of curving surface that swelled like undeveloped limbs. The leaves and branches above kept on the song which had sung me asleep; only now, to my mind, it sounded like a farewell and a speedwell. I sat a long time, unwilling to go; but my unfinished story urged me on. I must act and wander. With the sun well risen, I rose, and put my arms as far as they would reach around the beech-tree, and kissed it, and said good-bye. A trembling went through the leaves; a few of the last drops of the night's rain fell from off them at my feet; and as I walked slowly away, I seemed to hear in a whisper once more the words: "I may love him, I may love him; for he is a man, and I am only a beech-tree."

--------------------------

She began, and told me a strange tale, which, likewise, I cannot recollect; but which, at

every turn and every pause, somehow or other fixed my eyes and thoughts upon her extreme beauty; seeming always to culminate in something that had a relation, revealed or hidden, but always operative, with her own loveliness. I lay entranced. It was a tale which brings back a feeling as of snows and tempests; torrents and water-sprites; lovers parted for long, and meeting at last; with a gorgeous summer night to close up the whole. I listened till she and I were blended with the tale; till she and I were the whole history. And we had met at last in this same cave of greenery, while the summer night hung round us heavy with love, and the odours that crept through the silence from the sleeping woods were the only signs of an outer world that invaded our solitude. What followed I cannot clearly remember. The succeeding horror almost obliterated it. I woke as a grey dawn stole into the cave. The damsel had disappeared; but in the shrubbery, at the mouth of the cave, stood a strange horrible object. It looked like an open coffin set up on one end; only that the part for the head and neck was defined from the shoulder-part. In fact, it was a rough representation of the human frame, only hollow, as if made of decaying bark torn from a tree.

It had arms, which were only slightly seamed, down from the shoulder-blade by the elbow, as if the bark had healed again from the cut of a knife. But the arms moved, and the hand and the fingers were tearing asunder a long silky tress of hair. The thing turned round--it had for a face and front those of my enchantress, but now of a pale greenish hue in the light of the morning, and with dead lustreless eyes. In the horror of the moment, another fear invaded me. I put my hand to my waist, and found indeed that my girdle of beech-leaves was gone. Hair again in her hands, she was tearing it fiercely. Once more, as she turned, she laughed a low laugh, but now full of scorn and derision; and then she said, as if to a companion with whom she had been talking while I slept, "There he is; you can take him now." I lay still, petrified with dismay and fear; for I now saw another figure beside her, which, although vague and indistinct, I yet recognised but too well. It was the Ash-tree. My beauty was the Maid of the Alder! and she was giving me, spoiled of my only availing defence, into the hands of bent his Gorgon-head, and entered the cave. I could not stir. He drew near me. His ghoul-eyes and his ghastly face fascinated me. He came stooping, with the hideous hand outstretched, like a beast of prey. I had given myself up to a death of unfathomable horror, when, suddenly, and just as he was on the point of seizing me, the dull, heavy blow of an axe echoed through the wood, followed by others in quick repetition. The Ash shuddered and groaned, withdrew the outstretched hand, retreated backwards to the mouth of the cave, then turned and disappeared amongst the trees. The other walking Death looked at me once, with a careless dislike on her beautifully moulded features; then, heedless any more to conceal her hollow deformity, turned her frightful back and likewise vanished amid the green obscurity without. I lay and wept. The Maid of the Alder-tree had befooled me--nearly slain me--in spite of all the warnings I had received from those who knew my danger.

===========================================

Now <I>that</I> is real writing!

But was ever MacDonald the first to do this kind of thing? There were lots of earlier fairy stories and novels, so .... </font>
[/QUOTE] 

*********************************************

Ah yes, jallan could tell a tale and spin a yarn at the same time, couldn't he? </font>  </font>


"Fool of a Took! This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking-party."
 

#5 2004-05-01 08:41:25

whitestaff
Valar

Re: 4. TREEBEARD

<font face="arial"> <font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
Vinyamarien   </font>
<font color="seagreen"> 3/2/2002 11:44P
Original Chapter</b>

Ithlista: I agree: there is so much information in this chapter!! It's true about Treebeard saying not to be so hasty to give away their names: this is an ancient belief that to know the name of something is to have power over it. Some say this is why there is no longer magic in the world because Modern Man has named everything, especially in science. Many cultures do not let people know the real name of the child (like the Native Americans) and the child will have a nickname until they become older and the attributes of the child and/or when they go on a vision quest around puberty they will get another name, but not many people will know their REAL name. Tolkien also does this with the dwarves: they don't let people know their real names and also their language.
Cecilia: I agree that I was expecting Merry and Pippin to be terrified, especially since they are even smaller than we are, but I guess going throught the ordeal with the orcs toughened them in a way or sharpened their instincts to sense danger.(it could have gone either way...that ordeal with the orcs would have given most of us nightmares or nervous breakdowns that we would be afraid of our own shadows....but goes to show how tough hobbits are deep down). I was scared when I first read this, the two huge hands turning them around, but I trusted the hobbits' instincts: "Pippin, though still amazed, no longer felt afraid." I relaxed when I read this...here must be a friend.
Whitestaff: Interesting point: did Ents always look that way in the beginning or were they more "mannish"

I found the whole idea of Ents to be most original. I always had a tough time REALLY picturing them even though Tolkien did describe them more than other beings in his stories. I think it's because there is nothing to compare it to. Most of the denizon's of Tolkien's world had some comparison in my mind. Although elves were not the elves of fairy tales, they seemed more like denizons of "Faerie" (if you take my meaning, sir), the idea of dwarves and mining were even used (please don't be upset by the comparison) in Snow White. We have an idea of Wizards, and the Ringwraiths were once men, and hobbits seemed to be small people with a hairy feet.
Now ENTS, are altogether a new and different idea!! We are drawn into their tale just as Merry and Pippin are. Merry and Pippin become their "merry" selves again with their conversations with Treebeard. They almost sound like children and somehow seem to have forgotten the image of Strider following them. Granted, they are tired, scared and hungry and feel safe for a while, but they don't seem to be concerned at first about where the others are. I do like that they feel independent enough to say to Treebeard when he declares he wants to do something with "young" (lol) Saruman: "We will come with you. We will do what we can." I know that the hobbits are drawn by Treebeard's tale about his loss of trees by the orcs and they are also angry with Saruman the traitor..but I guess although they think of it later, they should have been thinking or saying something about Strider and the possibility that he's following them, perhaps they just felt that their friends would think they died in the battle, but I guess they should have said this, at least in passing.
I liked Bregalad/Quickbeam "for he often laughed" and although he had a heavy heart and great loss, he still enjoyed life and the beautiful world.
Merry and Pippin rode proudly at the head of the singing company of Ents (and is the forest moving behind them?) Funny how they aren't scared or unnerved, as I said before, to the small hobbits (and to us) these are true giants, but I guess compared to the journey with the Urak-Hai and all the other new and adventurous things they have experienced: going through Moria,they saw a Balrog, went through Lothlorien, faced the Ringwraiths on Weathertop(Merry even had one give him the "Black Breath" in Bree), Old Man Willow and the Old Forest, The Barrow Downs and a barrow wright (and of course old Tom)witnessed Boromir being attacked, not many things will scare them that easily again. I would have nightmares forever...even Elrond's wife, Celebrian, left Middle Earth after being captured by the orcs. How many people could have survived this and stay sane? Hobbits are strong!!!

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
Vinyamarien   </font>
3/3/2002 12:08A
Jallan</b>

WOW!! I guess jallan is right....if Tolkien had ever read MacDonald, this must have inspired the idea of the ents. It's not exactly the same, but.....
I must pick up a copy of that book....whew!

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
Ithlista   </font>
3/4/2002 6:53A
Oh my goodness.....let me catch my breath first after all this reading…</b>

Thank you ever so much white staff, for the posting of all the songs and for the posting of jallans excellent finds. as usual. he is indeed not forgotten !!!

where to start...

I am with Shadowfax19, I was totally impressed by this additional material, even though Tolkien , as white staff posted, had other thoughts of how he came to the Ents, had he ever read these tales they sure cannot do any thing by inspire you. wow. most most terrifying, enlighting and excellent. phew. what a read.

thanks for posting them all.

now to comment on the comments.

white staff, reread the songs. oh sigh.

each area Treebeard sings about in his travels have their own kind of trees, I have tried to study trees and it is a case of the more you learn the less you know, I now get very agitated when I see a tree and do not on the spot know what it is , very annoying, and I have so so so much to learn here. ( could use an entish guide by now , big time , not that ash though, spare me. ai ai ai.)

Tasarinan . Willows. spring
Ossiriand. Elms. summer
Neldoreth. Beeches. autumn
Dorthonion. Pines.winter

( whisper, note, no Ashes [132] )

sigh. so wonderful and the different names of the mentioned areas are interesting too.

lovely. againt he seasons are sung and I believe this is very important to Ents/trees.

then the song of the Rowan. I had to learn what rowan trees were, In scotland they are planted as protection symbol infront of homes, if I have that correct by memory.

then the Entwives and Ents. their different longings and ways. in the end to come together again, what a reunite that will be.

and I would not want to have an Ent as a foe as well the Marching song goes, and the chapter which tells us what Ents can do and Jallan`s additional material also gives us a glimpse.

shudder.

Poor "young" Saruman [132]

Cecilia, LOL I would turn as pale as I could and pass out. as a first reaction. then possibly run as in the tale Jallan`s post presents and be overcome. But, having read Tolkiens tales and liking trees as much as I do. I maybe will surprise my self and find it nothing ususual at all [132] Not a clue to be honest.

white staff, What are Ents, wow, your post on them having possibly been very different when they were first created , or sung , or thought up, is a very thrilling new thought to me. wow. thanks, a very new matter to ponder surely. also thank you for Tolkiens thoughts and interesting how he was led with in his magnificent writings, and so much thanks for jallan`s post. wow. wow. wow.

Shadowfax19, Yes must get myself a copy of those writings too. very fascinating. again just need so much more time to read all I need to read.

Neat information you give us on the Native Amercans not revealing their real names. very very interesting. another matter I will surely need to ponder, and ,need to use possibly or need to use most likely sooner.

How to thank you for your posts is almost like seeking an entish name....wonderful material here. thank you all and thanks white staff and via you jallan.

see you when I can return again.

Namarie !!!! going to recover now [132]

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
Dís   </font>
3/4/2002 2:07P
Yes indeed…</b>

...I think most people would go as white as sheets and then pass out if anything like that happened to them. But maybe I would not be so afraid if I felt that I could trust the Ent talking to me. When merry and Pippin comments on the stuffiness of the forest then Pippin says that it reminds him of the Old Tooks room in the smials in Tuckbobough, how the furniture hasn´t been changed or moved there for generations. The Old Took lived and died in that room. "And old Gerontius was my great great grandfather, that puts it back a bit". But the forest is even stuffier than that. I do belive that the strange feeling is caused by the anger that has been builded up by the Orcs cutting down a lot of trees and thus angering both the Ents and the Huorns. They are patient creatures but when they are angered then their wrath is intensive and you wouldn´t like to be in the other end. It is when they become infuriated that the shout comes that shakes the trees like a gust of storm.

Also I find Treebeards reaction to the tidings of Gandalfs fall in Moria quite pussling. He seems surpriced when Pippin and Merry talks about Gandalf in past tense while he talks about Gandalf in present tense. Could it be that Gandalf knows something but is not willing to come out with it, at least not then? We will see what will happened. </font>  </font>


"Fool of a Took! This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking-party."
 

#6 2004-05-01 08:43:52

whitestaff
Valar

Re: 4. TREEBEARD

<font face="arial"> <font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
Gypsy_Pip   </font>
<font color="seagreen"> 3/5/2002 12:02A
*gulp*</b>

Please don't kill me for being absurdly absent during my favorite book, so far!! I'm only doing my duty as a student and a dancer and a daughter and, and, and...

Well, I don't know if anyone has said any of this yet.

Okay, I am getting this from English class, and I don't know if we've gotten to ent-draughts yet (?)... but, water is a sign of rebirth, AND Pip and Merry grow when they drink it. So, this is a place of rebirth for them, perhaps?

I find it odd that Treebeard talks in present tense about Gandalf when the hobbits speak of him in past tense. Maybe Treebeard knows something... <I>*strokes imaginary pink goatee*</I>... it certainly makes sense later at Orthanc.

I like forests, personally. I like the smell and the way they seem so- oh, I don't know! not like the modern cities? More open, you know. Well, Pip and Merry, you would think would like Fangorn better, since after all they've experienced the Old Forest and Old Man Willow. However, they get a queer feeling about the place from the start.

I would compare it to the feeling of <I>someone watching you</I>. Perhaps Treebeard or even Gandalf was watching them, although Gandalf doesn't seem likely. But there is a "presence" in the forest, one that the hobbits can't decide whether to trust.

Yes, I know I'm a bit rusty, but work with me here! I'm getting back into it!

-Pip-

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
Ithlista   </font>
3/5/2002 8:50A
Here hastily.…</b>

Yes cecilia , our Dwarf Maiden, on both accounts, the stuffy forest is old I think that is why it is so stuffy, but, the Orcs and Sarumans attack upon it surely did effect the feel with in it also.

As I re read these chapters with the knowledge I have now I cannot believe all I missed the previous reads. almost shameful much. and I recalled least of the chapters to come and do recall very very little details , so , in a way like a first read in some aspects. or like a long had memory resurfing again maybe more. but as Treebeards reaction goes,that has always from read one puzzled me [130]

peregrin took, good for you setting priorities, you can always come here , this thread will be here, but, your future is in other more urgent matters, even if not easy, keep up the good work. being a student is not easy.

quoting you,

Okay, I am getting this from English class, and I don't know if we've gotten to ent-draughts yet (?)... but, water is a sign of rebirth, AND Pip and Merry grow when they drink it. So, this is a place of rebirth for them, perhaps?

I like that [130] thanks. nice touch.

Good luck to all students by the way [132]

Hugs,

Namarie !!!

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
hanspeter8   </font>
3/5/2002 9:19A
Re: Here hastily.... (um, me too)</b>

>Ithlista wrote on 3/5/02 8:50:16 AM<I>
the stuffy forest is old I think that is why it is so stuffy, but, the Orcs and Sarumans attack upon it surely did effect the feel with in it also.
</I>
Yes, that is surely so.
<I>
As I re read these chapters with the knowledge I have now I cannot believe all I missed the previous reads. almost shameful much. and I recalled least of the chapters to come and do recall very very little details , so , in a way like a first read in some aspects. or like a long had memory resurfing again maybe more. but as Treebeards reaction goes,that has always from read one puzzled me [130]
</I>
Now be fair to yourself. There is so much to remember. Fangorn's reaction to M&P's news of Gandalf is explained later, almost as an aside. I didn't notice it myself until the last time I read it.
<I>
quoting [peregrin took],
"Okay, I am getting this from English class, and I don't know if we've gotten to ent-draughts yet (?)... but, water is a sign of rebirth, AND Pip and Merry grow when they drink it. So, this is a place of rebirth for them, perhaps?"
I like that [130] thanks. nice touch.
</I>
Yes, water has long been a symbol of rebirth (thus baptism) and one with which Tolkien would have been very familiar. Drinking of water for this purpose is unusual, but not unknown. I would put a slightly different take on it. I would compare it to the scene in the Gospel(s) in which Jesus is left alone by the disciples at "Jacob's Well" in Samaria. When the 'Samaritan woman comes to the well at midday to draw water, Jesus (after some preliminary conversation) offers her a drink which will lead to everlasting life. (Sorry, I don't remember the exact quote). The parallel isn't exact, but it seems interesting to me. (I just thought of it now, so haven't had time to consider the consequences of it.)
<I>
Good luck to all students by the way [132]
</I>
I couldn't agree more. Especially those who work very hard. [132] [130]

Oops, spent more time than I expected. Gotta go.

Hal sie,

Hans Peter

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
goldberry   </font>
3/5/2002 2:51P
Ents and Hobbits</b>

“We’re going on a Bear Hunt, we’re gonna catch a big one. What a beautiful day. We’re not scared. Uh – oh, a forest – a deep, dark, forest. Can’t go over it, can’t go under – oh, no, we’ve got to go through it! Stumble, trip, stumble, trip.”


The Hobbits followed the stream into the forest, following no set path. And thus began the strangest adventure of their journey.

The rock wall and shelf they encountered was very much like the bald rock ledges, cliffs, and walls in the New England hills and mountains, where we still have some old growth forest. We climbed some of these last fall at Mount Watatic, and could see above the trees for miles. I did not see an “old stump of a tree with only two bent branches left”, though. I wonder what I would have done if I had!

Treebeard! What a delight to be with this “not too hasty” character, again. I almost feel that here is a variation of the Tom Bombadil character, (they even have the same initials!) with more connection to the main story, and more history of his own. I especially love his eyes – wells of time and memory, that change depending on where in time his thoughts are.

Treebeard’s tale of the relationship between Elves, Ents, and Men was poignant and sad, because so much is gone that cannot be retrieved. But now, there is a new relationship, between Ents and Hobbits. It seems that the Hobbits and Ents have more in common with each other than with any other of the Free People. They seemed to instantly understand one another – when Merry & Pippin were telling their tale, they jumped all around and Treebeard jumped right in with his questions, never seeming put out with the Hobbit’s style of story telling. There also seemed to be an understood agreement about not discussing the reason for their journey.
Insatiable Hobbit curiosity was evident in Treebeard – he was interested in everything they talked about

Treebeard also showed a Hobbit-like sensitivity to his guests. He puttered around Wellinghall as a Hobbit would about his hole, getting his guest refreshment and accommodations; he was also sensitive to the boredom the Hobbits felt during the long Ent-moot. There was the same Hobbit love for genealogy/local history – Treebeard told stories about many of the Ents and their trees. Lastly, the Ent and the Hobbits seemed to share an underlying, understated humour, even when things had not been going well for the Ents or Merry & Pippin.

This chapter was so packed with humour, information, background, description, hints, and questions, that it would be easy to write an analysis that was longer than the actual chapter! Overall, what made me happiest was the dialogue. There is more plain conversation in this chapter than just about any other in the books so far. We get to know Merry & Pippin much better than we could in the past, and Treebeard and Quickbeam are very accessible characters with the extra dialogue. Through all the conversations are a mix of dry wit and sad reminiscence. As Treebeard said, he was “sad but not unhappy”.


More on the more many other random thoughts later!(that water conversation looks interesting....have to do some thinking...)

Trying not to be hasty, or too long!
goldberry  </font>   </font>


"Fool of a Took! This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking-party."
 

#7 2004-05-01 08:46:40

whitestaff
Valar

Re: 4. TREEBEARD

<font face="arial"> <font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
Illuvatar1   </font>
<font color="seagreen"> 3/5/2002 7:00P
i'm back</b>

sorry guys and girls....I've missed alot(and many of my favorite chapters too!) hopefuly my wife will let me use the computer once in awhile!
*screaming at sky*
Damn you YoungAndTheRestless.com!!!!!!!!
Hmmmmm lets see....anyone out there understand where Tolkien was going with the Entwives subplot?
The "walking trees" discussion in the green dragon in "A Long Expected Party" was obviously a foreshadow...but its seems to me this was one area that Tolkien never fully explored.The indexes explain that the Brown Lands east of the Anduin was the graveyard for most if not all of the entwives...but I get the feeling that JRR had more to say about the Ents and their wives.
I dunno could it be he simply lost interest and moved on?

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
goldberry   </font>
3/5/2002 9:11P
Just a side note to tickle your fancy…</b>

Would any of you consider yourself to be more of an Ent, or an Entwife??

hroom, hrum,
goldberry

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
cirion1   </font>
3/6/2002 4:41A
A bit hasty</b>

Another extremely rich chapter. As RW is pressing I will at least try to make a short post despite all intriguing information in the chapter and in previous posts. Ithlista, as always, you made a wonderful resume. And as Goldberry points out, this chapter contains more dialog than previous chapters and we get to know the characters better and make the ents immediately very much alive and accessible.

The description of Fangorn forest is as being ancient, dim and stuffy but very different from Mirkwood. As has already been pointed out the feeling of the forest is largely due to its age but, as is noticed later in the chapter, the Orcs and Sarumans attack upon it did effect the feel within it also.

One thing that strikes me in the encounter with the ents is that they are described better in the text than probably any other creature in LOTR. It is as if Tolkien expected the reader to know what men, elves, orcs and trolls look like but when he comes to the ents there is suddenly a need for a close description and as always it is excellent. Especially the description of the eyes! The result is that the ents in a way remains wondrous and fairy like whereas e.g. elves, dwarfs and even orcs appear very real which is probably Tolkiens intention. He writes a story of a fairy world with all the fairies very believable and then adds additional enchantment by new, more fairy like creatures! We are told what ents look like, what their language is like, how they sleep and what they eat (or rather drink). Furthermore we get their history, how it started when elves woke up the trees and tought them how to speak, we get the story of the entwifes and the lack of Entings. Also we learn that ents are getting more and more like trees as times pass and also sleepier which indicate a probable future for them (?).

White_staff came up with the reverse problem. What did the Ents look like in the Beginning Days? I do not think we get any hints anywhere. My guess is that they looked less like trees and perhaps more like men. Trolls are made in mockery of Ents, ugly and mean, but perhaps the trolls look more like the ents did originally than the ents do themselves. What about some kind of hybrid between ents, trolls and men? Would that make sense?

A thing that continues to puzzle me is Treebeards first impression of the hobbits. “ .. Turn round and let me have a look at your faces. I almost feel that I dislike you both, but do not let us be hasty..” What in the friendly conversation of these to wonderful hobbits could have upset Treebeard. That they called Fangorn a “shaggy old forest”? Given what we learn of him later I would have thought not.

Treebeards odd response to the news of Gandalf will be explained in next chapter if I remember correct. Again, Tolkien is very consistent in giving hints that are not noticed by the first time reader but that the second, third or tenth time reader will notice and be intrigued by.

Another cool thing is the Ent draught and how Merry and Pippin respond to it. It is like a fast version of watering and fertilizing a plant. As it turns out later, the hobbits actually grows!

The marching song is one of my favourite songs in the book, it has a very natural beat (you can almost hear the drums). Must copy a part from White_staff:

We go, we go, we go to war, to hew the stone and break the door;
For bole and bough are burning now, the furnace roars - we go to war!
To land of gloom with tramp of doom, with roll of drum, we come, we come;
To Isengard with doom we come!

Oops, this will have to be enough for now. Wonderful posts everybody. And Goldberry, would I be more of and Ent or an Entwife? I guess a compromise would suit me well. I would be an Ent during winter and spring and an Entwife during summer and autumn.

Cirion

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
Ithlista   </font>
3/6/2002 8:53A
For some reason my responses will not post L</b>

Will keep trying. hope everyone is doing well.

will keep trying to post my responses to your wonderful comments [130]

Namarie !!!

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
Ithlista   </font>
3/6/2002 9:07A
last attempt.…</b>

hanspeter , always great to see you and so true so so so much to take in within Tolkiens works and more still with each read. wow. and yes, good issue you bring forth, good luck to all teachers too. teaching is a hard job !

goldberry, oh wonderful post as always.

some points even though I would love to cover each point....

“We’re going on a Bear Hunt, we’re gonna catch a big one. What a beautiful day. We’re not scared. Uh ­ oh, a forest ­ a deep, dark, forest. Can’t go over it, can’t go under ­ oh, no, we’ve got to go through it! Stumble, trip, stumble, trip.”

LOL LOL LOL LOL love it [120]


some neat information through your rock climb experience, thanks. and LOL on the final remark [132]

interesting remark on the TB issue. and Tom and Treebeard , or rather Tom Ents, Entwives, Entings, Huorns are connected more than any tale tells , much searching , I was surprized to find what I did. but,alas, been all over and cannot recall all I found let alone where, but, it was there and it did amaze me. Yes on the eyes of Treebeard.

Love your Hobbit Treebeard connection, new perspective. great.

Yes on Treebeards sensitivity towards the Hobbits, loved that touch. a lot.

As Treebeard said, he was “sad but not unhappy”.

I like that too. very interesting difference , you can be sad but that does not mean you are unhappy.

thanks goldberry [130]

oh and your question, well, I am too hasty to be an Ent and too little knowledged about gardening to be an Entwife ??? what does that make me, An Enting maybe ???? much to learn still , is that an option too [120]

Illuvatar1, I am sure he had so much more to say on Ents, but as said, a lot was discribed also.

cirion,
Yes on Ents being described, very true fact.

White_staff came up with the reverse problem. What did the Ents look like in the Beginning Days? I do not think we get any hints anywhere. My guess is that they looked less like trees and perhaps more like men. Trolls are made in mockery of Ents, ugly and mean, but perhaps the trolls look more like the ents did originally than the ents do themselves.

very interesting. like putting an elf next to an orc in comparison, then maybe we get a glimpse Troll Ent wise too , worth the ponder.

What about some kind of hybrid between ents, trolls and men? Would that make sense?

well see above, not hybrid more comparisson, as ugly as orcs seem to be towards Elves , assume the Trolls are as deformed as the orcs and then compare a Troll in the light of Ents, the Ents will then become beautiful beings. No ???

as in your problem towards the first encounter of the Hobbits and Treebeard, we must see his perspective I think,

The Hobbits were scruffy looking for one and Treebeard had not a clue what they were and so much devastation had occurred of late he must have had some mistrust towards anything on two legs non elf like. but , as goldberry pointed out, Treebeard must have Felt something familiar too. so he did not trod on them instantly .phew.

Again, Tolkien is very consistent in giving hints that are not noticed by the first time reader but that the second, third or tenth time reader will notice and be intrigued by.

Yes or the 25th time reader, if lucky. goodness so so so much to learn...definitely an Enting...

Another cool thing is the Ent draught and how Merry and Pippin respond to it. It is like a fast version of watering and fertilizing a plant. As it turns out later, the hobbits actually grows!

I always loved this fact [130] you can see them growing [132]

wonderful chapter. thanks everyone. [130]

Namarie !!! </font>  </font>


"Fool of a Took! This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking-party."
 

#8 2004-05-01 08:49:05

whitestaff
Valar

Re: 4. TREEBEARD

<font face="arial"> <font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
Agamemnon9   </font>
<font color="seagreen"> 3/6/2002 3:32P
Ents Hooom</b>

Wow, of all chapters for me to come back to ....... Certainly a turning point for so many aspects of teh story. Of all creatures and characters encountered thus far by the Hobbits, certainly Treebeard must be the most familiar to them. No others are as close to Arda as these two species. It is unfortunate that Sam was not there, certainly he would a good companion to Treebeard.

Myself, I never really appreciated this chapter till I read the Silmarillion. So little of what is said by Treebeard makes sense untill you've read that. The place names, etc.

This chapter is so important as a connector. So many things {good things}that will happen soon are totally dependant upon these characters meeting exactly when they do, and this would never have happened if so many things {apparently bad at the time} hadn't happened before.

Great to be back ........ AGA

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
white__staff   </font>
3/7/2002 12:07A
The Disappearance</b>

I have had this notion in the back of my mind the last few days and now I have time to post it. What happened to the Entwives?

Let me say first that I hope that I am wrong and perhaps my logic is incorrect but here it goes:

Treebeard tells us that the Entwives went to look for new land and crossed the Anduin to do so. The land that the Entwives settled in was the site of a great war where many of these Entwifes were lost. The land, devasted and laid to waste, was to be later known as the Brown Lands. Treebeard and the other Ents hope that not all of the Entwives were lost in this calamity.

Yet, should we think of the Entwives as being killed during this time? Were they eliminated? Perhaps, and some may have survived. Did they escape in time and leave for other lands beyond the maps of middle earth we are familiar with? Could be, but I doubt that this is so. Who knows, of course.

Then it hit me. Maybe the entwives were captured not destroyed by evil forces.

It is said that captured Elves of old were twisted and tortured into a new race of evil beings, the Orcs.

Orcs were made in mockery of Elves.

Trolls were made in mockery of Ents.

How did Melkor make Trolls?

Were Trolls made from captured Entwives?!!

If this is so, it would be a sad explanation for the <I>disappearance</I> of Entwives, wouldn't it?

The Encyclopedia of Arda has this to say about Entwives:

Entwives
The lost spouses of the Ents
Dates: Originated shortly after the Elves. The Entwives seem not to have survived the War of the Last Alliance at the end of the Second Age1
Meaning: 'Wives of the Ents'. Ent is an Old English word for 'giant'.

The mates of the Ents, who had their gardens in the regions later known as the Brown Lands. When Sauron blasted that region, the Entwives escaped into the wilds of Middle-earth and were lost to the Ents (or so the Ents themselves believed).

<b>1</b>Note
It should be said that the fate of the Entwives was never resolved with certainty, but the signs are not hopeful. Tolkien's clearest statement on the matter is to be found in his Letters: 'I think that in fact the Entwives had disappeared for good, being destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance (Second Age 3429 - 3441)...' (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien No 144, dated 1954). This is less definite than it might appear, because he goes on to suggest that some might have fled into the east, and finally simply states of their fate, 'I don't know.'

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
Dís   </font>
3/7/2002 7:57A
So it is not impossible…</b>

...that at least some Entwives survived the war and fled into the east, living there and teaching the men how to grow crops, tend gardens and other such skills. So it could very welll be so that the Ents and the Entwives will meet someday. Then they would be very happy indeed. That would be a sight, I think.

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
Illuvatar1   </font>
3/7/2002 6:48P
Hmmmm</b>

some interesting ideas whitestaff....
so are the Hurons trees that have become entish?
Then that would mean ents have become mannish....or do I have that the other way around but in reverse?
Just Kidding....your right though I think When you connect the Entswives and Trolls
Tolkien loved to right character foils..
eg: Gandalf and Saruman....elves and orcs....Manwe and Melkor...Frodo and Gollum...the list goes on and on.
story balance in Tolkien's stories is as important as well...eg: Nine fingered Frodo and Nine Fingered Sauron...The garden of Lorien facing the darkness of mirkwood....
These are just a few examples.
I gets to the point where you look for these balancing acts in his prose and poetry and get frustrated when you can't make the proper connections(at least I do).
The Ents and Entwives subplot has always puzzled me...I just can't shake the feeling JRR left something out of his story equation.

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
Vinyamarien   </font>
3/7/2002 9:57P
Ents and Entwives</b>

Whitestaff: Very interesting ideas!! But I think that you answered the question by quoting Tolkien..."I don't know"....

I have a feeling that Tolkien may have not fully thought out the answer himself. I would like to agree with Cecilia, that many entwives escaped and perhaps someday they will meet again (sorry for the happily ever after!!!)

I think you both may be right....maybe some escaped, some were destroyed and maybe some were captured, but for some reason, I tend
to think it was Ents, not Entwives that were captured and twisted. It's hard to describe, but I guess I picture Entwives as teachers and tenders and growers (nuturing). Ents can become treeish and trees can become entish. and then there's the Hurons (sorry misspelling) that some are black at heart. I guess this blackness in some of them to being able to be twisted to become trolls, more than the nuturing entwives.

BTW....I am reading Tolkien's Letters, and recommend them to anyone!!!! All of the letters are written by Tolkien himself and many explain what he was thinking about when writing certain things in LOTR. I am currently reading a selection about Frodo and the Mt. Doom. EXTREMELY INTERESTING!!!! and it also points to that many of our dear contributors to these wonderful chapter discussions are really on target about what Tolkien intended.
Everyone has given such wonderful insights to these boards (and the Fellowship boards) that I would be bold enough to venture to say, that Tolkien himself would enjoy these discussions!!! </font>  </font>


"Fool of a Took! This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking-party."
 

#9 2004-05-01 08:52:24

whitestaff
Valar

Re: 4. TREEBEARD

<font face="arial"> <font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
Tataleya   </font>
<font color="seagreen"> 3/8/2002 1:28A
Ents and Entwives</b>

I'm glad that before I reread Lord of the Rings that I chose to read The Silmarillion. It helped me center myself somewhat for the read and understand some of the references in the book.
I really admire White_Staff's insight because that was something I'd never thought about. I've thought about going to TTT in costume and my idea was to go as an EntWife. I'd previously envisioned someone large and tree-like but now that I think about it if they began more human-like and their love was of the garden as opposed to the ents love of trees they'd probably be likely to be still large but perhaps have flowers in their hair. It seems like a beautiful vision and I'm saddened that the ents haven't been reunited with them and horrified at the thought that they were used to make trolls. Though Tolkien's history isn't always pretty.
As for TreeBeard's initial dislike of the Hobbits. Think about the type of beings hobbits are. They are very close to the land and yet use wood, quite possibly from live trees, for furniture, doors, firewood, and the like. Perhaps he could sense this about them.( Wooden button on clothing could suggest a creature that uses wood as a tool. Not a bad thing unless you're part tree.) I think it might be offensive to an Ent. Yet he can tell at their hearts they are good creatures so he decides not to be hastey.
I really wish there had been something in the books about the ents finding some entwives. I guess it wasn't vital enough or meerly overlooked. He did write happy endings for many of the important characters though later on. Would have been nice had he recalled TreeBeard.

~Tat

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
Gypsy_Pip   </font>
3/8/2002 2:17A
Very nice.</b>

I couldn't have said better.

Besides, it's 1yikes0 in the morning, I don't feel particularly erudite. But this is great! I'll post again when I'm more awake.

-Pip the Sleepy-

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
goldberry   </font>
3/8/2002 8:27A
Evolution of the Entwives</b>

There could have been yet another ending to the story of the Entwives....(although the Professor never seemed to suggest this!). If Ents become more 'treeish', would it be unreasonable to suggest that the Entwives became more, um, 'shrubbish'? (oh, goodness, there go the montypythoners again....)

I guess my point is that maybe some Entwives could be around someplace, but have evolved to something unrecognizable to the Ents, and have grown sleepy, so don't hear the Ents calling....


being difficult!
goldberry

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
Ithlista   </font>
3/8/2002 9:18A
Hope for the Entwives ????</b>

Agamemnon, good to see you return,

Oh yes , Sam meeting Treebeard that would have been wonderful indeed. agree there. and yes so true, the more you learn of the past the more the future material takes shape. the more you learn the more you see and yet, the more you need to know. and Treebeard a connecting chapter, hmm, suppose it is yes [130] thanks for your comments.

white staff , oh my goodness, good point on the Entwives being used as to be currupted as Trolls, but, I think at least on did exscape....the one seen in Hobbiton ??? I cannot find the passage right off, but, that did give me a glimpse of hope. the Entwives would be attracted to the Hobbit way of life. I have some hope.

cecilia our dwarf maiden, It is said they will meet again in the West

Their song ends..

Both...

Together we will take the road that leads into the West.And far away will find a land where both our hearts may rest.

they in the end will be together again.

maybe the Entwives are already there waiting for the Ents [130]

Shadowfax19 , oh yes on the letters of Tolkien, wonderful book, hope you enjoy the remainder, it is so full of wonderful facts and information and so much more.

Talaleya, welcome and very interesting point you bring up, the Hobbits loved and used wooden furniture, doors and such and buttons too, yes, very questionable to an Ent for sure , wonder how a Huorn would respond, hmm, worth the ponder, thanks.

peregrin took, sweet dreams [130]

goldberry,

I guess my point is that maybe some Entwives could be around someplace, but have evolved to something unrecognizable to the Ents, and have grown sleepy, so don't hear the Ents calling....

very very interesting thought and could well be, but , I still return to the Hobbit who saw the "walking tree " I see that as a glimpse of hope towards the Ents.

I will yet do some digging here [130] thanks everyone.

( hope this posts )

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Éowyn_   </font>
3/8/2002 10:33A
better late than never…</b>

I missed the last chapter and I'm most probably going to miss the next one too, so Im taking the opportunity of using this free internet connection "for university work only" to type a longer post than I've managed lately...

I was going to start with "this is one of the most wonderful chapters in the book" but checked myself in time... I think it's one of the most magical chapters, though (if you can say it like that). I like the way Fangorn is introduced... it's not as if Treebeard suddenly walks into the story, it's almost the other way around... more as if current events have eventually reached the forest of Fangorn and entered it before anyone realised. I had shivers running up and down my spine almost continually while I read this chapter, because of the intense feel of magic and mysteries greater than any we've come across before, even though the story has already passed through Rivendell and Lothlorien - or indeed Laurelindorenan, a much more beautiful name, to my mind, it rolls off the tongue so much more easily...

Merry and Pippin wander absent-mindedly under the trees, and when they realise that there's another dimension to the place which they can't quite grasp, they try to explain it with little hobbitish comparisons. It's sometimes hard for a reader to fully take in descriptions of places, and even harder if they're so different from anything we've experienced, but Tolkien somehow manages to convey the feeling of Fangorn by not really describing it at all...

I absolutely love Fangorn's first little "speech"... when he said "turn around so I can see your faces", I would dearly have loved to see the hobbits' faces myself, but I imagine it must have been somewhat similar to my own...

Then comes the whole of this wonderful magical chapter. Oh, my, I would dearly love to talk about all the little scenes in detail, but I don't have that much time...
My impression of all the scenes that follow was that suddenly I could look out through a window into a magical and mysterious past, when forests covered most of Middle-Earth and the world was still fresh, the Elves were at the height of their power and "young Saruman" was still a pretty nice young wizard. Of course there was evil in the world as well, but as I was saying, everything was different then...

I agree that it would have been very interesting indeed to see Sam meet Fangorn, but somehow I would be much more interested in how Sam reacted to that meeting than how Fangorn would react to the news of Hal's story of the walking tree. Sam always wanted to see Elf-magic, didn't he? Well, it seemed to me that the Ents have a certain amount of magic of their own, a non-hasty magic, ever-growing, ever-changing but as silent and slowly as trees grow over the decades and centuries. Elves seem very hasty indeed compared to these creatures...

I also love the poems and snatches of songs in this chapter. Even the random ramblings of Fangorn in Ent-language have a certain charm of their own... but my absolute favourite is the marching-song. I get shivers down my spine and a tingling in my feet whenever I read or hear even a single line of it... I can simply feel the ground shaking and the rocks echoing like drumroll, while these age-old strange creatures advance like an avalanche to destroy Saruman of Many Colours... and I can well imagine what a shock it must have been to him when he realised that they were indeed attacking... but that's another chapter.

Just one more thing... I don't know why, but I never liked the name Treebeard. Somehow, it seems a much hastier name than Fangorn, even, though I couldn't explain why... I even prefer the German translation of the name, "Baumbart". Somehow, the sound of that name has a more tree-ish feel to it, it puts me in mind of a blow on a hollow tree-trunk... but that's just me ;-)

my compliments to all those who posted before me, wonderful posts, I loved reading all of them... and thanks for posting jallan's post, staff, that story was just so wonderful!

:-)

Éowyn

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
Sammy Jadis Jr.   </font>
3/8/2002 10:33A
my turn!!…</b>

...(you know you're obsessed when you take notes while reading other people's posts)

okay before i get inot treebeard let me talk about merry some. (great grammar sammy) anyways, the previous chapter was about pippin and his on the spot thinking. this chapter is merry's domain. it begins with pippin reliquishing his role of "idea man" to merry's forethought to research the maps at Rivendell. we see that merry, in a wasy, is the true leader. he knew that going on a journey to parts unknown knowing nothing is not the greatest of ideas. he has a quiet intelligence and great instincts. i probably would have done the same thing in Rivendell were i merry. i would have loved to get my hands on some maps of middle earth and learned how the landscpe runs and the history of it as well.

now the plum. Treebeard. TREEBEARD RULES!!! i love him. he is one of the greatest characters EVER. and if you disagree, you're just wrong. Tolkien's description of Treebeard's eyes is one of my favorite passages in the book. the depth and soul that is put into the description. imagine being able to see the ages in someone's eyes. imagine how Pippin must have felt just looking into them. the wonder, the comfort, the wisdom, the fear.
another thing i liked about treebeard was his willingness to revise the old list. it shows his wisdom. while ents are known to be slow and to not be hasty, treebeard goes right ahead to make sure that the hobbits get the recognitioin they deserve.
what fascinated me about the ent draughts was that what merry and pippin drank at night was not the same as what they drank in the morning. here tolkien makes a great reference to nature. the evening draught is fairly earthy and sounds like is full of nutrients needed to grow. after all, they did feel it to the tips of their curls. but the morning draught was lighter, more refreshing, more like dew. it's meant to revive you refresh you.
Quickbeam's list of all the trees he enjoys is so much fun to read. eachtree has its own personality and represent an aspect of the human emotion. in myths each plant stands for something and it's quality is carried over as to why it is a favorite of the gods. the same motifs are carried here. i love how this whole chapter has to do with trees. Fangorn's Reminescence Song beautifully supports the whole motif. and the march after the entmoot is so exciting...but i won't give anything away.
did i forget to metnion that ents are great?

ithlista: no ashes!! you are so right. and after reading jallen's posts i find that being so hilarious. and you're right, the experience of rereading Tolkien is far more rich than your first journey. (btw i thoroughly enjoy your posts and i love how you encourage new thoughts and ideas on these threads)
Whitestaff: from the first posted Tolkien letter i was able to appreciate why i love ents so much. tolkien said he no longer tried to invent. the ents created themselves...beings so beyond the imagination of a single man that he had to let the words and his instinct breath life into these beautiful characters called ents. maybe it also has to do with why forest feel so alive

pippin: treebeard speaking of Gandalf in the present tense and Merry and Pippin speaking of him in past...what an interesting observation. you wouldn't be implying anything would you? ;-)

Aga: coming back to Lotr after reading the Silmarillion is one of the best things i've done with literature. it makes lotr even better.

shadow: i had a response to you but for the life of me i can't remember what it was. anyway, you made some great points.

and to finish it off, my view on entwives: Tolkien spent most of his time putting the female characters on pedestals and keeping them away from the action and the corruption. I belive he is doing the same with the entwives. Tolkien sees his female characters being so pure of heart he cannot write about them without running the risk of tarnishing the image they are meant to give. it's really hard to wrie about someone or something when they are actually there. entwives are a perfect being of the past meant to be held in the most perfecet of memories. the beautiful faded past of middle earth that will never come agian.

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Illuvatar1   </font>
3/8/2002 4:34P
Goldberry</b>

I think your idea makes alot of sense....I think that the main idea Tolkien tried to express about the Ents was the fact that they were not at all like Men ,Elves or Dwarves.
His descriptions of the ents becoming more treeish and the trees becoming more entish have always amused and fasinated me(I look at trees differently now).
I think you may be on to something  </font>  </font>


"Fool of a Took! This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking-party."
 

#10 2004-05-01 08:57:19

whitestaff
Valar

Re: 4. TREEBEARD

<font face="arial"> <font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
Lomendil   </font>
<font color="seagreen"> 3/9/2002 2:11A
Fantastical</b>

Well, club friends, RW has been kicking my butt, this week--haven't EVEN had a chance to post, before now. But I'm happy to be here now, checking out all of your contributions. As always, it has been a fascinating read. The smallest comments are treasures to me, who went forty years without knowing amyone who was TRULY a Tolkien enthusiast enough not to want to ridicule me for my interest in fantasy, let alone to want to make the kind of insightful, sincere and earnest observations each of you have. It is good to see you, here, Aga. Long time no post. Of everyone's comments so far, I am most struck by Goldberry's speculation that the Entwives may have become "shrubbish". That's the possibility that appeals most to me, and I shall henceforth choose to disregard all of those other gloomy speculations ('Staff). Here are the comments I have on this chapter:

Ents, what a concept! I can remember reading, or seeing in movies or on TV, various kinds of takes on the talking and/or animated tree idea. I can't recall if they are in the movie or not, but there are <I>limb-lithe</I> trees in the book version of The Wizard of Oz. They are wicked and threatening, one of the nasty problems Dorothy and company encounter on the way to the castle of the Wicked Witch of the West. I've seen them in cartoons, in comic books, in assorted childrens books, and, in one form or another, in fantasy books by other authors. In every instance I can recall, they are represented as bad guys: slow, clumsy, stupid and rather--well--"<I>goofy</I>", limited to cartoon status because that was as much credibility as they could muster. You could have substituted ogres, bears, werewolves or any of a hundred other wooly-boogers, and gotten the same effect--they were just big, ugly mean things, to give the protagonists something to whoop-up on, in order to show how bad they are. They have no particular personalities, beyond "not nice", no history, no culture, no explanation as to their existence or (as Sam said of the neeker-breekers, in the Midgewater Marshes) "...what they live on when they can't get Hobbit." This, as I am always pointing out, is what sets J.R.R.. Tolkien apart. The Ents (together with the Huorns) are unmistakably Fairy Tale creatures, as fantastic (same root word as "fantasy") as any ever depicted. Yet, when Tolkien tells, it, we believe it. The Ents have depth, wisdom, humor, anger, weakness and compassion. They are multi-faceted, varied, with nuances, quirks and differences, a complete and complex society of individuals, with a--well--ethnicity, I guess, of their own. As we read, even as we recognize how fantastically improbable they are; as much as our logical and rational adult minds may wish to deride and discount such an absurdly "childish" notion, we are simultaneouslyand irresistably drawn into the touching, intriguing and evocative concept of the Ents, and their world. They do far more than simply provide a passing "tourist attraction", on the Hobbits' journey through Middle Earth, or a pesky obstacle for them to overcome to dramatize their muscle and swordsmanship. Instead, they are introduced here and go on to occupy a place in the story so central and integral to the development of the theme, it is as though they were conceived from the beginning as an indispensible, germinal, fundamental element of the story. Their motives, their values, their pains and their passions tie us in with other strands all throughout the trilogy (and, in fact, as others have noted, The Silmarillion, as well): the history of the Elves, and of the Edain and Beleriand; the origins of the <I>Istari</I>, and of places, from Isengard to Lothlorien; and languages, legends and lore, of a hundred kinds. Their own culture and ways are fascinating: Entmoot, Enthouses (how I would love to visit Wellinghall), Ent draughts, Entstrides, Entings, Entmaidens; their songs, poetry; their voices, their eyes.

So it is with Tolkiens writing: every detail is as crystal, as sharply defined and cleanly conceived as the crowning achievements of other authors. What to them is fantasy, to him, and through him, to us, is Fantasy, with a capital "F", not an escape or a diversion, but a profoundly expressive vision of reality, so striking and so singular in its conception, that it must be told in terms of the fantastic, inorder to convey its impact to us.

As always, I leave it to the efforts of others, such as Ithlista and Cecilia, to name two, who are much better at it than I, to do the detailed analyses and the phrase by phrase critiques. These reveal Tolkien's prose as being equally as remarkable as his vision, the only vehicle fit, in fact, to convey it. I am not really a fan of fantasy fiction. Most of the other authors I read, write what is called "hard" science fiction, the kind at the opposite end of the imaginitive fiction spectrum from fantasy. Tolkien is the only one whose vision is so (Are you ready? Here it is!) <I>transcendingly</I> expressive, stirring and inspiring as to hold even my rather cynical attention. The absurdly unlikely concept of the wonderful, incredible, <b>fantastical</b> Ents is as good an example of this as I can find. For these reasons, <I>Treebeard</I> is "...one of my favorite chapters."

Cordially, Lomendil

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beorn_again   </font>
3/9/2002 9:36A
ta-runda runda runda rom!</b>

What a great chapter this is. In the immediately preceding chapters, we have just learned of the Rohirrim, who assist Aragorn & Co., and we get a taste of their fighting skill. We are then treated to an intimate glimpse of the world of Orcs, and watch as the Rohirrim dispatch the entire lot of the foul creatures, as Merry and Pippin make their escape into the mysterious forest they had been forewarned against.

We now learn that the warnings against Fangorn were similar to the warnings about Lorien, borne of misunderstanding and misplaced suspicion. For Fangorn is actually a herd of ancient trees tended by their shepherds, the Ents. Just as with the Rohirrim, we learn of another powerful force that will provide unlooked-for aid in the war against Saruman and Sauron. Recall that if the Ents do not take Isengard and assist the Rohirrim in their victory over Saruman's forces, the Rohirrim do not make it to Minas Tirith in time, and Minas Tirith falls, and the forces of the West do not march to the Morannon and draw all of the forces of Sauron out of Mordor....I suspect you get the picture.

Some time later in the books the analogy is drawn by Gandalf (I think) commenting on the fortuitousness of the hobbits' meeting with Fangorn, something to the effect of a falling pebble (the abduction of Merry and Pippin leading to their rescue by the Ents) starting an avalanche (the marching of the Ents on Isengard). Very poetic and appropriate.

There have been comments in this thread about the hobbits' feelings of danger and fear in the forest. I think these feelings were genuine, as the trees were not familiar with these new creatures, and their shepherds were not around to protect them and had not yet approved of their presence. Also, as has been pointed out, the d Orcs had been wreaking destruction among the trees and some were in the vicinity. Once Treebeard takes the hobbits under his wing, the negative feeling seems to dissipate.

This feeling was exactly the opposite of what Legolas felt about the wood, but recall that the Elves had awakened the Ents from tree-form in the Elder Days and taught them to speak. Ents and trees must have felt a natural affinity for a woodland Elf like Legolas.

Sorry to burst the hopes of some posters in this chapter, but the Entwives were gone for good. The history of the loss of the Entwives makes the Ents more tragic, sympathetic figures, and only increases the readers' love for them.

The Ents' fearsome marching song is one of the high-points of this entire book. Woe be to Saruman and the tree-hewing Orcs.

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Aladoro   </font>
3/9/2002 6:36P
Trees in mythology and psychology</b>


Phew! This chapter is sure being taken good care of! Already it is probably one of the best places on the Internet to gain knowledge about Ents!
jallan, dear jallan – how I miss him. There are so many excellent postings of his strewn generously all over the boards – good, ‘staff, that you brought forth this special one. Yes, jallan was a magnificent “gatherer of threads”.

As for the concept of trees, of course it would not have eluded Tolkien that the tree is a powerful symbol of Norse mythology. Yggdrasil, the World Tree (an Ash, by the way!!!), is a central feature. Besides the tree in Gondor kept in Minas Tirith almost as a sort of divinity, bearer of good or bad tidings, also the Ents represent the World Tree in LotR.

Somewhere among the boards there is a tree-board. It contains many delightful postings concerning the members’ relationship with trees. Notably, many happy and peaceful moments of childhood are associated with trees. I am strongly reminded of this when I read about the “meals” Treebeard offers his Hobbit friends! It is such a colourful scene when Pippin and Merry first are acquainted with Ent-water, and all the symbols of Norse mythology are present… The life-giving water, with its colours and delicate qualities – it has a whole range of different tastes that greatly amaze Pippin and Merry. As it turns out, this source of nourishment also makes the Hobbits grow taller than usual Hobbit-size! As if they slowly begin to turn into trees themselves.

How can we avoid bringing allegory into our study of Tolkien’s works? It is absolutely impossibly. In psychology, water represents our feelings and instincts. The tree as a symbol represents our various layers of consciousness. Thus, the roots are of course pertinent to our earth-connection, our sense of reality and so on – they also reach deep down into our subconscious. The tree seen as a whole actually resides on the “heart level” where it represents the distribution of vital energy to our entire personality – the physical body as well as our other components. So, the Ent-water is a very important source of nutrition: it is life itself. For as everyone knows, the world tree will dry up should the source at its roots dry up…(Norse mythology).

Seen in this perspective, Saruman’s folly crime of “slaughtering” all the trees of Isengard becomes even more chillingly eerie – and we become aware of the degree of his downfall into the hands of Sauron. By felling the trees, Saruman commits a sort of genocide and it is all too clear to the reader that this folly will bring about his own defeat, sooner or later. For you cannot destroy the principle of life and still hope to survive, yourself.

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ickusfan   </font>
3/9/2002 6:59P
the forest and the trees</b>

i remembered reading this when i first came here....
Ask me any question and I will answer Board: Imagery & metaphor in creation stories Discussion

took a bit of a look-see to find it again. maybe one of you lasses that are so good with the relocatin could put it somewhere it made sense with a title that made it recognizable

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
goldberry   </font>
3/9/2002 10:20P
More stuff</b>

Here are some more random thoughts in no particular order (hey, I’m only good for one coherent, organized post every couple of chapters. LOL!)

Ithlista – glad you liked the Bear Hunt chant – it’s part of a much longer story you may have heard read to children. My children loved the Helen Oxenbury version when they were young, and still do :-)

Aga – glad to hear your fine ol' voice again,<I>mellon!</I> Great post!

Illuvator1 – liked your point about the yin/yang balance of LotR characters and events. Very insightful…I’ll have to keep an eye out for that as we go along.

Hanspeter and others talked about the symbolism of water as an element of rebirth, rejuvenation, renewal. There’s a ceremony I know of where people bring water from wherever they have been over the summer, and pour it into a common bowl, telling the story of where the water came from, and it’s significance to the person. The water is then sterilized and used later in child dedication (sort of like a christening) ceremonies. Nice touch by the Professor, to include such small but meaningful details.

Aladoro - great comments - I'll need to read/dwell on them some more. I'm a bit of a mental fermenter when it comes to responding to ideas....;-)

Am I an Ent, or Entwife? Hmm – let’s see, I like hominess and order in my world, (let’s not discuss the Renov. Boards, shall we??). On the other hand, I always leave a corner of my garden, house, and even relationships, just a little “wild”, sort of on it’s own, without deliberate planning and control. I guess that makes me ¾ Entwife, and ¼ Ent – order in the center, chaos at the edges.

The vessels in Wellinghall that gave off light were intriguing. First, it seems that Treebeard has some plain old magic. Second, the lights of the two vessels were reminiscent of the light of the Two Trees of Valinor. I loved the way the 2 lights blended to create a sun-dappled effect.

The line by Treebeard “…I am not altogether on anybody’s side because nobody is altogether on my side…” was very much like something Bilbo would say!

I was struck by the contrast of the way Treebeard carried the Hobbits, and the way they were carried by the Orcs.

The Entmoot was the first time in a long time that Merry & Pippin weren’t in a hurry. That must have been a healing break for them.

Some trees were even older than Treebeard. Time stamp, here? I guess that makes Tom Bombadil older than Fangorn.

Fate theme again – Merry & Pippin were destined to meet Treebeard.

The rhythms of the chapter were wonderful – setup, action, and conclusion, with a building suspense and tension, and then release. Even the prose changed with the different stages of the chapter. By the end, you could imagine even Treebeard speaking in short, clipped, quick sentences.

Great discussion, here, folks – “I LOVE this place”, to quote a really bad commercial.

Jumping around not too hastily,
goldberry </font>  </font>


"Fool of a Took! This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking-party."
 

#11 2004-05-01 09:00:47

whitestaff
Valar

Re: 4. TREEBEARD

<font face="arial"> <font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
cirion1   </font>
<font color="seagreen"> 3/11/2002 9:21A
Ents. Entwives and Trolls</b>

Many wonderful new posts since I was here last time. Several new details and themes have been brought to attention. Lomendil made a truly Fantastical post, extremely eloquent as always. Beorn_again made excellent observations about the hobbits fear in the forest, and goldberry on the rhythms of the prose. Sammygirl101 remarks about Tolkiens way with female characters and the Entwives is also much worth to ponder about. Just to point out some of the great stuff that has come up. Not much to add but I cannot help comment a few things:

Ithlista, thanks for your comment on my unsorted ideas on what the ents originally looked like. I think you are right there, a comparison of orcs/elves and then assume that Trolls are the same twisted version of Ents is probably the best way to get an idea. The hybrid idea was part sprung out of the lack of proper words. I also think that you, Tataleya and others had some good answers to my questions on Treebeards first words to Merry and Pippin.

White_staff wondered if Trolls perhaps could be made from captured Entwives, which would also explain their disappearance. There has been many good responses to that already that I will not repeat. I would just like to add the time perspective. Entwives finally disappeared around the time of the Last Alliance, i.e. end of Second Age. However, we know from the Silmarillion that Trolls were around already during the First Age. For example, Hurin was fighting Trolls during the fifth battle (Nirnaeth Arnoediad). Thus, Trolls originated long before the loss of the Entwives. Therefore, I do not think that they were the origin of Trolls. I also agree with Shadowfax19 who wrote that it was Ents, not Entwives that were captured and twisted. Also, the Entwifes were lost shortly before Sauron was defeated, was there time to twist them into Trolls?

My thinking on the Entwifes is the same as Goldberry. The Entwives, if they survived the war, probably got more shrubbish and sleepy and did not hear the Ents calling. I think one must also recall that the Entwives probably did not look much like the Ents anymore (in fact not even the last time Treebeard saw them if I remember correct, I do not have the book with me). The Ents look more like trees and the Entwives more like (? lets say) bushes and crops. I strongly suspect that what Sam refers to (Hal saw a "walking tree” in the North Farthing, in a pub conversation with Ted Sandyman) in the LOTR was actually an Ent having become more tree like. Perhaps he was searching for the Entwives smile. Unfortunately, I do not believe there is any hope of finding Entwives in the Shire or anywhere else. Also, the song ending with them meeting again in the west is just a song, perhaps with the need for happy end just like in modern books and films. I guess the elves do not know more about this then the Ents themselves.

Aldoro brought up the tree (and water etc) as an important symbol in Norse mythology with several links to Tolkiens creation. This reminded me that in Norse mythology, man and woman were created from wood (tree) as the shadow of the gods fell on pieces of tree. The man was made from Ash (!!!yes) and the woman from Elm (not quite sure here). What about that as inspiration for walking trees? I will check this if I find the time.

Sincerely
Cirion

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
Ithlista   </font>
3/12/2002 10:02A
Wow, when you think all has been said that could be said still more arrives. splendid.</b>

You are all fantastic and I mean it...

Eowyn, Not as if Treebeard suddenly walks into the story, so true, we were in several ways being prepeared for this and still it was a huge unexpected surprize !!!

Laurelindorenan....oh sigh.

Tolkien mangages to convey a feeling of fangorn by NOT describing it in full...good point.

The faces of the Hobbits when Treebeard turns them around, yes, indeed, would have loved to have seen it, actually, we well do picture it , don`t we , as you say well.

Sam and elf magic ,yes, he would have had some experience here indeed.

Baum bart , Tree Beard, Fangorn...would still love to know his whole name, surely these are all very very very minor parts of it , as you well point out.

I don`t think I shall live long enough to ever hear it though...

wonderful post Eowyn.thanks

sammygirl, Merry more in the light here , yes, seems characters do take turns and even if I do not recall right off, I think Merry gets a bigger turn yet to come.

Oh yes on Treebeards eyes. wonderful the way Pippin tries to describe them , I agree.

I love you thoughts on Female characters being too pure in heart and filled with vast memories and also as Entwives go to be covered in full as if Indeed Tolkien values them too much to be fully expressed, keeping their true value and their mystery at all times. wonderful.

Illuvatar1, I too will never see a tree in the same light. so so very true.

Lomendil, Yes I agree, it is so grand to have True Tolkien fans here to fully , as possible, be able to express our selves and share the most amazing insights , which are surly presented in this chapter discussion and we need your expertise in expression and knowledge, do not underestimate yourself please [130] Tolkiens writing every detail as a crystal, like that a lot ! keep the expression coming.

Beorn Again , The warnings towards Lorien and Fangorn a misunderstanding, agree , Yet , if for instance Celeborn knew what Ents could do if angered, the warning may have been from his perspective very just , No ??? just pondering ! And yes I get your picture on the Warfare destiny here. fully.

Legolas feelings towards Fangorn different, I always find that so wonderful [130]

Aladaro, Oh love your Norse Mythology input very much thanks. and Interesting, as if the Hobbits began to turn in to trees, you know, I recall I wondered about that in my very first read, after this chapter I expected any thing could happen.

ickusfan, welcome. alas, your link I will have to get into later. but, thanks

goldberry, Yes Tom is indeed Older, his own words, Tom was here before the rivers and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. etc... always enjoy your posts as I hope you know

cirion, and some posts are just so overwhelming I don`t know where to begin as was the case with most of the posts here today and this one, and I will never do them justice, but, enjoy ever bit.

Trolls and Ents and Entwives are from the first age. I am sure Morgoth used Ents and possibly Entwives and if he could get his hands on them Entings to create his horrible Trolls, but, agree that that is not the reason the Entwives vanished, there is more to that one I just know it. the answer must be some where !!!

I think goldberry`s idea is very possible too. but, still they sing them selves that they will meet again in the Westlands. such a mystery. fascinating.

We Know Tolkien loves trees, his drawings of them are superb. I wonder if it was just pure wishful thinking combined with the mentioned and more mythologies and Tolkien just brought them more to life than ohters had.

Lomendil mentione the Trees being Bad in most shows , I find that interesting too, Tolkien loved trees and made them good, even if the Huorns scare me quite a bit, and it is also intersting that Tolkien makes Dragons evil and most shows tend to make them good. a very ponderable topic.

must hasten away now. was grand being here.

Namarie to all !

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
Agamemnon9   </font>
3/12/2002 4:18P
The Ents who say . "Ni"</b>

LOL shrubbish, I LOVE it!!!

Actually, I think that Staff's worries about the entwives being the source of Trolls may be a little overstated. Certainly, it is possible that <I>some</I> entwives met that fate, butI am fairly certain that the existance of trolls predates the "disappearance" of the entwives by at least an age. I've not got all my references in front of me, but I'll check that soon.

Why am I not surprised at the level of activity on this board for this chapter??? And especcially the L E N G T H of the posts for this chapter. Certainly worthy of the subject, I must hastily say.

Need it be said that P.J. had BETTER have done a good job with the ents?? LOLOL

setting new roots .......... AGA

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
Fearod   </font>
3/12/2002 5:07P
Well</b>

I haven't got my books in front of me, but from what I can remember, the disappearance of the entwives seems to have occured during the Second Age. Trolls were used by Morgoth, so... I don't think they were the source of Trolls.

I think the entwives were too weak to be used for breeding Trolls, to be honest.

Can't wait for you guys to get to the <I>really</I> good chapters...

The Whole FN $how, Fearod

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
goldberry   </font>
3/12/2002 5:13P
Re: well Fearod</b>

>Fearod wrote on 3/12/02 5yikes7:19 PM

Can't wait for you guys to get to the <I>really </I>good chapters...

This is just the warm-up show, my friend! I can't wait, either - LOL!

anticipating,
goldberry

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
litlthread   </font>
3/12/2002 7:42P
wheew!</b>

So many great posts. It is so refreshing to be able to come here and hear the comments of everyone. To be able to fellowship with fellow freaks.

I have always wondered what happened to the Entwives and my favorite theory is this one. The Entwives are in Tom Bombadils wood. Hobbits love growing things and gardens! Sam mentions to Faramir that gardeners are held in high esteem there (or was that Frodo?).

I always just thought that after their terrible ordeal at the hands of Sauron and his cohorts they would be extrememly shy of all other creatures. I also think that it is very significant that Treebeard knows nothing of Hobbits. Obviously the Shire is an area that has never before been investigated for Entwives.

I like to imagine that upon returning to the Shire and setting things to right, Merry and/or Pippin went to visit Tom Bombadil. Tom, being so wise and old, revealed to them the secret of the Entwives. Pippin and Merry then made a journey to Treebeard with the happy news that the age old quest was over. The Ents then made their own journey, inviting Pippin and Merry to share once again in their entdraughts. The ents and entwives were reunited!

I like to imagine that the purpose of Pippin and Merry's visit to Fanghorn was more than what is mentioned. That the higher purpose, far from being one of violence and destruction, was to bring about a very long overdue reuinion.
What a magical chapter and enthralling story. I can't count how many different endings I have come up with. I'm sure we all have.

As to why Treebeard should almost feel he disliked the Hobbits, they probably smelled strongly of orc. We also don't know exactly how deep an effect the orc medicine had on them internally. We do know that the salve left a brown scar on Merry till the end of his days. Perhaps after spending so much time with the orcs and drinking their draughts the Hobbits gave Treebeard an orc feeling?

Also, Treebeard initially mistook them for orcs. I don't have a copy of the book before me but perhaps even when he was speaking to them he still wasn't quite sure. Is it possible that he might have at some level thought they were strange and perhaps redeemable young orcs?

Growing up I lived in a forrest. My house was in a clearing surrounded by trees off a highway in southern louisiana. I spent almost all of my free time playing in the trees and naming different areas after forrests and trees in Tolkiens works.

After Hurricane Andrew one of the oldest trees in my forrest had fallen. I remember being so sad but also awed as I counted the rings and realized just how long that tree had actually been there. What all must it have seen and heard? What an incredible character an Ent is! Like a tree that can talk!
<I>
Waltzing in the wood one day
I thought I heard an oak tree say
Dance all you like but think of me
When next a fire warms your feet
Trees trees who made the trees?
History has shown them such wonderful things
What do they remember? What do they see?
What do they think about me?</I>

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
Agamemnon9   </font>
3/13/2002 8:26A
Good Point, Fear!</b>

I believe that what Tolkien said was that Trolls were made "mockery" of ents, not that they were made "from" ents. While Orcs WERE made from "Corrupted and tortured" elves at first, perhaps the analogy does not apply to the other species. Afer all, Morgoth had an especial hatred for elves, perhaps making their relation to orcs a special case.

One other point on the fate of teh entwives. I think that the shire connection is a good one. Remember at teh very beginning of the Fellowship, when Sam is in "The Green Dragon", he is arguing with Ted Sandyman, I believe. He comments that someone had seen a walking tree on the north downs, or some such place. If that isn't a classic Tolkienesque clue, what is. He is SO good at pre-placing information that it almost cannot be a coincidence. I too would dearly have loved to hear more of the entwives and their eventual fate.

Again, I wish Sam had met the ents in Fangorn.

Cant wait to meet Theoden ............ AGA  </font>  </font>


"Fool of a Took! This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking-party."
 

#12 2004-05-01 09:04:58

whitestaff
Valar

Re: 4. TREEBEARD

<font face="arial"> <font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
Ithlista   </font>
<font color="seagreen"> 3/13/2002 9:52A
Hug for everyone here,</b>

Love this poem litlthread posted and love your Tree experiences, alas for the Huricane [127]

poem...

Waltzing in the wood one day
I thought I heard an oak tree say
Dance all you like but think of me
When next a fire warms your feet
Trees trees who made the trees?
History has shown them such wonderful things
What do they remember? What do they see?
What do they think about me?

nice.thanks.

Agamemnon9, LOL on the length of the posts here [130] very effective.

Peter better get Ents right!!! I am sorry to say I have tremendous fear how the second movie and the third will be handled since being very crushed the first movie , I prefer not to ponder too much.

As good as it was as a movie in it self, nothing else could be possible with the material he used to create it.

Fearod, The RELLY good chapters [130] that is quite the statement as wonderful as they have been so far [132]

goldberry, a warm up , hmm, like that [130]

litlthread, Toms wood is where the Entwives may be, interesting thought.

and Merry and Pippins visit to Fangorn to contain more than released, maybe so.

Do Ents smell ??? pondering.

I am sure the fact the Hobbits were unknown to Treebeard is what caused the first reaction, thank goodness for unhasty Ents. phew.

Agamemnon9, the second post you posted ,

But Morgoth could not create life itself, he needed live matter to corrupt. and as Trolls were in mockery of Ents, I am guessing that is what he may have used, or , he used trees maybe, good point to ponder. hmmm, could Morgoth bring trees to life as Trolls ???

must do some digging here, for I do understand what you are saying.

And Yes it is mentioned several times the Walking Tree beyond the north Moors was seen by Sams cousin Hal. and not long back. surely there is a connection there.

Sam does say Tree men....hmm. more pondering.

it was as big as an Elm tree and walking, sam adds. seven yards to a stride , as if it were an inch. and there are no Elm trees on the North Moors.

Hummmmmmmmmmmm, much more to ponder...

see you all as soon as I can return. keep the thoughts coming.

Namarie !!!!

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
Dís   </font>
3/13/2002 11:56A
Indeed I agree with all of you</b>

I have at times been pondering where the Entwives might have gone. It does seem likely that they went to the forest of Tom Bombadil where they would be safe. Also, as has been indicated, the Shire lies nearby and I think that the Entwives would be attracted to the fields and gardens of the Shire. So it is quite possible that this is where they are.

Mundin Cleverbow aka Cecilia the Dwarf Maiden

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
white__staff   </font>
3/13/2002 11:19P
That Smell!</b>

litlthread wrote:
"As to why Treebeard should almost feel he disliked the Hobbits, they probably smelled strongly of orc. We also don't know exactly how deep an effect the orc medicine had on them internally. We do know that the salve left a brown scar on Merry till the end of his days. Perhaps after spending so much time with the orcs and drinking their draughts the Hobbits gave Treebeard an orc feeling? Also, Treebeard initially mistook them for orcs. I don't have a copy of the book before me but perhaps even when he was speaking to them he still wasn't quite sure. Is it possible that he might have at some level thought they were strange and perhaps redeemable young orcs?"

I agree with this conclusion as to why Treebeard thought the hobbits were orcs. As well as the fact that orcs had been in the forest lately destroying trees for Saruman's furnaces.

Ithlista, as I understand it, wondered if Ents have the sense of smell. I have to say that they did. Remember Treebeard telling the hobbits how vast the forest was and he would spend days (weeks?) just breathing in the air? I will quote:
<I>
'Those were the days! Time was when I could walk and sing all day and hear no more than the echo of my own voice in the hollow hills. The woods were like the woods of Lothlorien, only thicker, stronger, younger. And the smell of the air! I used to spend a week just breathing.'</I>

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
goldberry   </font>
3/14/2002 8:25A
The smell of the air…</b>

I just love that line!

goldberry

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
Ithlista   </font>
3/14/2002 8:47A
[130] </b>

Saw a bright red star this morning, seemed as if it were on fire....

Dis, are you cecilia our Dwarf Maiden ???
and where ever the Entwives went, I hope we find out some day!!!

white staff, thanks , that was superb on the smelling bit and ....

goldberry, ...how could I have forgotten that very line , how very silly of me.

Must have had a relapse or something, or , I just needed to hear that very wonderful experience of Treebeards smelling the air again, or some deep inner longing I have at the moment as I wait for spring to come forth , it still snowed yesterday !!!!

always great to come here.

Hope every one has or is having a good day to day.

Namarie !!!

do Ents smell ?, Of course they do [120]

ithlista walks off shaking her head....I must drink some of that Ent draught to keep me going.....

thanks to white staff`s and goldberry`s the world is once more set aright [132]

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
Dís   </font>
3/14/2002 11:09A
Re: Ithlista</b>

Yes it is me, Cecilia aka Cecilia the Dwarf Maiden. I have changed my member alias to Dís after Dís Thráins Doughter which as I see it is a good member alias. The name that I sign my posts with is the one that the Dwarf name generator att the Barrow Downs gave me, I put in my full name and out came Mundin Cleverbow. I like it and I will use it to sign my posts.

*bowing*

Mundin Cleverbow aka Cecilia the Dwarf Maiden

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
Dís   </font>
3/14/2002 12:31P
Yes, goldberry</b>

I also love that line, the air must have felt fresh and vibrant then. It would be something to smell and breath that kind of air.

Mundin Cleverbow aka Cecilia the Dwarf Maiden

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
Sammy Jadis Jr.   </font>
3/14/2002 2:36P
mmm…</b>

...i'd like to spend a week just breathing. i'd probably get really fat too and have my muscles atrophy into jello.....anywaaaaaay

all this talk of merry and pippin smelling like orc sorta makes you wonder how closely inter-related ALL the species in middle earth are.

and merry, w/ the orc medicine and ent draughts...is he hobbit AND orc AND ent now?

O_o uh...nm, that's just wierd.

great comments all of you. all this stuff is really interesting and definitely makes you think. and as fear said, we haven't even gotten to the good chapters yet.

~lots of luv, sammy~

btw cecilia, mind telling me how you managed to change your alias? i feel i'm outgrowing mine a little.

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
Dís   </font>
3/14/2002 3:02P
Changing your member alias</b>

It is quite easy to do that. You go to the link for "My Account" in the dark blue area. Once there you select the "My Profiles" button. Right under those buttons is a drop-down menu that shows you all the clubs that you are a member of or allows you to change information,(but not your ´alias´) for all clubs at once.

Open the menu and chose which club you wont. A new page will appear and the first item adressed on that page will be your username and your club alias. You can enter a new alias to show in that club. Repeat this for as many clubs as you wish.

This is a tips that I got from a member in another club that I am in. In this way your member alias will change but in chat you will still have your Lycos member name. Hopes that this is useful.

Mundin Cleverbow aka Cecilia the Dwarf Maiden

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
Illuvatar1   </font>
3/14/2002 6:09P
breathing the air(something I've noticed)</b>

This is one of Tolkien's first air motif references.
Later on in the book you'll notice The wind and the air popping up more and more....
You'll read"The wind is changing" quite often and many other lines to this extent.
hmmmmm me thinks of Manwe.
I dunno I've had a long day...I could just be making this stuff up.  </font>  </font>


"Fool of a Took! This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking-party."
 

#13 2004-05-01 09:19:03

whitestaff
Valar

Re: 4. TREEBEARD

<font face="arial"> <font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
Dís   </font>
<font color="seagreen"> 3/15/2002 8:00A
No, I don´t think you are making stuff up</b>

The wind and the air is realy important features. The threat of war becomes wery real when it comes as a dark cloud upon the east wind, also the stuffiness that Merry and Pippin feels as they enter Fanghorn Forest is a sign of anger and tenseness. So you are definetly not making anything up in this matter, not as I see it in any case.

Mundin Cleverbow aka Cecilia the Dwarf Maiden

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
Agamemnon9   </font>
3/15/2002 11:30A
Re: [130] </b>

>Ithlista wrote on 3/14/02 8:47:03 AM

do Ents smell ?, Of course they do [120]


Well, yes, of course they do, but it begs the question... What do Ents smell LIKE??

LOLOL

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
hanspeter8   </font>
3/15/2002 1:16P
Ent scent</b>

>Agamemnon9 wrote on 3/15/02 11:30:24 AM
>Ithlista wrote on 3/14/02 8:47:03 AM<I>
do Ents smell ?, Of course they do [120]

Well, yes, of course they do, but it begs the question... What do Ents smell LIKE??

</I>
Hmmm. I would think after all those thousands of years, they probably smell like trees too, not just look like them.

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
Ithlista   </font>
3/16/2002 1:58A
Very tired but here hastily.…</b>

My hours are totally messed up, hope to be here tomorrow [130]

Dis, good to know who you are for sure. I kind of guessed it by your new name, but, just wanted to be sure, cannot be too safe here , thanks. and Yes , the Air , the water, the earth are all very important elements with in these tales...

Illuvatar1, hmmm, more to be attentive to !!]

sammygirl, a week just breathing, oh yes, in a forest near a lake , perfect and yes , these comments sure make us think...

Agamemnon, LOL [130] I should love to find out

hanspeter, good to see you return. and LOL to you too. I was thinking the Ents would smell like trees too, but, with that entish touch, as said, going to think some more...

can people smell in dreams ???

tomorrow the next chapter. I hope I can be here, need to be here , must be here....

it is tomorrow, correct ??? I need sleep [132]

Namarie to all !

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
hanspeter8   </font>
3/16/2002 2:28A
Re: Very tired but here hastily.... (me, too)</b>

>Ithlista wrote on 3/16/02 1:58:05 AM<I>
My hours are totally messed up, hope to be here tomorrow [130]
</I>
I hope your day is better tomorrow. [130]
<I>
hanspeter, good to see you return. and LOL to you too. I was thinking the Ents would smell like trees too, but, with that entish touch, as said, going to think some more...
</I>
Yes, it seems the only possible answer, but as with trees, different kinds of ents will smell different.

Hal sie,

Hans Peter

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
Ithlista   </font>
3/16/2002 6:35P
hanspeter,</b>

from now on I will not only hug, climb and learn about trees names, I will smell them as well and report to you when I am able and hope to confirm your comments .

had quite the battle with the White Rider just now and left me all [121] embarrassed.

Namarie !!!! </font>  </font>


"Fool of a Took! This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking-party."
 

#14 2004-05-01 09:21:50

whitestaff
Valar

Re: 4. TREEBEARD

<font face="arial"> <font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
hanspeter8   </font>
<font color="seagreen"> 3/18/2002 2:06P
Ithlista</b>
<I>
from now on I will not only hug, climb and learn about trees names, I will smell them as well and report to you when I am able and hope to confirm your comments.</I>

I usually find them easier to smell after doing some pruning, or after it rains. (Proper pruning is good for trees, it can help keep them from behaving like huorns. [132] )
<I>
had quite the battle with the White Rider just now and left me all [121] embarrassed.
</I>
I see no reason for <b>you</b> to be embarrassed because the computers weren't playing nice.
<I>
Namarie !!!!
</I>
Hal sie,

Hans Peter

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
Ithlista   </font>
3/19/2002 7:23A
hanspeter,</b>

I usually find them easier to smell after doing some pruning, or after it rains. (Proper pruning is good for trees, it can help keep them from behaving like huorns. [132] )

Poor you having a Huorn to deal with , a very dangerous one too it sounds like.

summon the Ents...be patient as they make their way over to you [132]

I will keep your smelling tree advice in mind, thanks.

as for the White Rider, sigh, I just did not want to leave so many posts that is all I suppose. will brace my self next chapter...they only seem to get longer and longer and longer .... which in itself is great but as my summaries go a growing challenge [132]

so bear with me !!!!!

Keep well today , watch out for that dangerous Huorn [132] but , we are safe if we are not Orcs, or if we are not mistaken for Orcs, right...????

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
litlthread   </font>
3/21/2002 6:11P
for ithlista</b>

I was going to e-mail this to you but you are blocking. The rest of the songs you liked are now on my creative works board titled, my stuff. They were actualy the first few lines of two different songs. Sorry to everyone for having to put a pretty much private message on the chapter discussion board.

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
Faramira_   </font>
3/22/2002 1:24A
Not so fast!</b>

I spent an hour today reading the posts in this thread. Tell me, how did we go from jallan's resurrected posts, to hunt chants, to Hobbit/Ent cologne? lol Seriously, my friends, I pondered, laughed, pondered some more... so much that my head is now spinning. Exquisite insights from all on such a "rich, magical, fantastical" chapter! ;-)

Treebeard's personality is most intriguing to me. He is firstly a big guy like Beorn, and not one to be messed with. However, he is not so irritable and his attitude conveys so much calm and inner tranquility. How Tolkien describes his eyes is wonderful. From 17th century precious speak (in French, <I>langage precious</I>), we inherited the expression "the mirror of the soul" to describe the eyes. Nothing can be truer for Treebeard. Funny Éowyn would mention his name. I always thought "Treebeard" didn't do justice to the depth of this character. In French, they translated it into <I>ylvebarbe.</I> I personally prefer the use of the latin root (and twig lol) for a creature as ancient as this.

Fara

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
Ithlista   </font>
3/22/2002 8:46A
Litlthread and Faramira !</b>

Litlthread , sorry my email gave you such problems [127] I know it can be that way. here is another address This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it

but when I have a moment I will go to where you lead me. bear with me.

Faramira,

love this,

Treebeard's personality is most intriguing to me. He is firstly a big guy like Beorn, and not one to be messed with. However, he is not so irritable and his attitude conveys so much calm and inner tranquility

and I know this too...

"the mirror of the soul" to describe the eyes.

I have heard it many times.

thanks. sigh. love these chapter reads.  </font>   </font>


"Fool of a Took! This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking-party."
 

#15 2004-05-01 09:28:01

whitestaff
Valar

Re: 4. TREEBEARD

<font face="arial"> <font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
goldberry   </font>
<font color="seagreen"> 3/23/2002 9:08A
Fara</b>

"He is firstly a big guy like Beorn, and not one to be messed with. However, he is not so irritable and his attitude conveys so much calm and inner tranquility"

Do you think Treebeard was a Zen Buddhist, perhaps??

loved the French! (root and twig!)

goldberry

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
Faramira_   </font>
3/23/2002 12:41P
lol goldberry</b>

Oooh, what a parallel: ! But you may be on to something. Come to think of it "Hroom" does sound like a meditative exclamation...
Fara

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
Ithlista   </font>
3/25/2002 7:33A
LOL goldberry and Faramira on Treebeard..…</b>
[130]

I learned something last night from a person who had been following a survival sort of class. one thing they learn is becoming one with nature as the Native Americans teach. And I always wondered how Elves who see Trees as very alive beings and awaken them to life and speach and such could chop them and use them for making carvings and such. well, hope I can put this into words, You can heal nature by helping it and meeting your own needs . If ,say, a set of trees grows real dense in an area and younger trees cannot seem to grow, you actually help the trees by removing some, with utmost gratitude of course, and help the others develop, thus, your needs are met and the trees are helped. same towards natural herbs and food sources. You work with nature and find your needs and help it out at the same time . There was much more, but, this is a brief account.

I am sure I do not tell it well. but, I sure was very impressed, always wondered about this fact .
now I sort of know. much to learn still though.

again, LOL you two [120]

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
beorn_again   </font>
3/25/2002 10:48A
Just catching on to the defamation…</b>

...that's been occurring toward my namesake here recently. Irritable and lacking inner calm and tranquility? Moi? So, you want a piece of me? Hmmmmmm?

Ithlista, perhaps the Elves looked at trees the same way a rancher looks at cattle.

Still looking for the mindful path of tranquility amid the sturm und drang, I remain,

Respectfully yours,

Beorn

: p

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
Sammy Jadis Jr.   </font>
3/26/2002 1:53P
sammy's new alias…</b>

...is Jadis. now you know.

anyway. fara, thank you so much for telling us what Treebeard's name is in the French translation. (gracias amigita! :-)) Sylvebarbe is actually quite fitting a name and a wonderful play on roots. word roots i mean. *chuckle chuckle* and it set me wondering... what is Treebeard's name in other translations? and are there more plays on words?

do these translations add or take away from Tolkien's point.

in regards to Sylvebarbe i think it adds. it gives Treebeard a deeper feeling and a playful one at the same time so it fits his personality quite well.

besides the fifteen hundred names Tolkien gives him, what else does the world call Treebeard?

~the sammy~

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
Dís   </font>
3/26/2002 4:57P
Well, in swedish…</b>

...the name is "Lavskägge" meaning lichen beard. I think that it is quite a good name, befitting such a kindly person.

Mundin Cleverbow

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
Ithlista   </font>
3/28/2002 2:16A
Treebeards names.…</b>
Actually I have not a clue in dutch Boom Baard maybe ???? if a litteral translation.

beorn again ,

Ithlista, perhaps the Elves looked at trees the same way a rancher looks at cattle.

I would not know really [130]

I am neither you see, but an elf wannabe that is sure [132]

Dis , neat name for Treebeard in swedish. thanks.

and Sammy girl is now Jadis ...must print that in my mind....

Treebeard what a chapter this is ...we learned so much and there is more yet surely.

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
malialda   </font>
7/18/2002 1:00A
Ents woo hoo !!!!</b>

I am a huge fan of the Ents and Treebeard. Altough I think that all of Tolkiens characters are wonderful, I think he must have been in a creative zone when he invented the Ents and Treebeard. There were a few parts of this chapter in which I actually laughed!! "Hrum, Hoom', 'Very odd indeed! Do not be hasty, that is my motto. But if I had seen you, before I heard your voices- I liked them:nice little voices; they remind me of something I cannot remember....I should have trodden on you...". I mean can you imagine being a 4ft hobbit and sitting there while this 12ft tree sort of being is saying this to you! It gave me a giggle.

<font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~ <b>
Ithlista   </font>
7/18/2002 9:04P
malialda , welcome indeed…</b>

what a cheerful post. glad you could join us and Ents do tend to bring about many emotions I agree with you I too chuckled at parts. ( after I knew all was safe ). </font>  </font>

<p align="center">  <font color="chocolate"> ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ </font>
<font color="seagreen">  <font size="3"> [B]Original Discussion Complete and Ready for More![/B]  </font>   </font>   </p>


"Fool of a Took! This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking-party."
 

#16 2005-12-29 06:21:25

Éowyn
Maiar

Re: 4. TREEBEARD

I suspect that that picture wasn't originally intended for this discussion  [131]


I think, therefore I am - Descartes
I imagine, therefore I belong and am free - Lawrence Durrell
 

#17 2005-12-31 16:55:36

whitestaff
Valar

Re: 4. TREEBEARD

Nope. Gotta love the internet, constantly changing.
Looks like I need to check all of these discussions. Thanks for the heads-up, É.


"Fool of a Took! This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking-party."
 

#18 2007-12-13 09:15:20

Re: 4. TREEBEARD

<font color=9932cc>So, I'm at this chapter in my spanish copy, and it's a testament to Tolkien. The heart of this chapter shines through and I'm loving it. The passage of time has just solidified in my mind just how strong and beautiful the chapters with Treebeard (Bárbol) and Quickbeam (Ramaviva) and all the Ents are.

I have to admit, I missed English in this one. The desctription of Treebeard's eyes is one of my favorites ever. Even though the description in spanish is just as beautiful, I missed reading the passage in Tolkien's own words. So awesome.


<font color = 9932cc>"once you get into cosmological shit like this, you got to throw away the instruction manual" --IT
 

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